A P*ssed Off Southern Pastor Tells It Like It Is

I am a southern pastor and an educated professor who lives in rural Arkansas amidst folks who own guns and vote Republican. I hold college degrees, I preach in two churches, and I teach history in a respected four year college. I am not stupid. But I am not allowed to put political signs in my yard or stickers on my car because it will offend my students and my congregants if they know how I truly believe, even though my gun toting friends can post all the memes promoting ignorance and violence they want, without fear. So instead, I will write an article and tell the whole damn world the truth:

1. I am a proud member of the Christian Left. Not only that; I find it very hard to believe that you can read the Bible and vote Republican right now. Intolerance and hatred are not in the teachings of my Christ.

2. I vote for Democrats. Every time. I would vote for a yellow dog before I voted Republican, just like my Ma and Pa before me. I do not find good in both parties like I say I do to keep you happy. I think Republican candidates are mostly ignorant and ridiculous in everything they say, and they absolutely do not represent my Christian values of love and mission.

3. I believe in freedom of speech, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, even when they are stupid.

4. AND freedom of religion, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, and aren’t Christian. I have friends who are some of the kindest people I know and they follow a different sacred text. I honor their faith, as they honor mine. To do otherwise, would not be Christ-like of me.




5. I live my life for God, but I do not think God belongs in our Constitution. Separation of church and state; It’s a thing. Look it up.

6. You cannot be both prejudiced and Christian. One prevents the other. No exceptions. If you are Christian, you don’t hate.

7. There is too much hate and there are too many guns in this country. And, I believe those things do not align with Christ’s command to love our neighbor. You cannot believe that guns are the way to save the world if you study Christ’s teachings. Peace, love, giving, acceptance, forgiveness; Christ taught all these things. I find no red scriptures on gun ownership or arming for peace. They just aren’t there. Get over it. You are not being a Christian if you put your faith in guns. How dare you post pro-gun propaganda after a school shooting. It is insensitive, and offensive, and immoral. Christ would NOT approve. People carrying guns are NOT saving lives. But the free availability of guns in this country is causing deaths which are reaching viral proportions. Enough is enough. I don’t care about your damned right to own guns. I am tired of children dying in this great country.

8. Consenting adults have a constitutional right to get a government document certifying their legal marriage. The 14th amendment guarantees it. Not only that, marriage is love, what this country is needing to combat the hate and violence we are infected with. Love and marriage are not what we should be focusing on. Starving children, mass shootings, immoral lobbying firms, planet destroying, violence, and hate, those are our problems.

9. Traditional marriage in the Bible is polygamous. Get a Bible and read it before you try to use it to support your hatred and intolerance.

10. The confederate flag is racist. It was flown by treasonous terrorists who fired on their own country and supported the enslavement of human beings. They lost that war and it is time to move on. If you want to show your southern pride, fly an American flag and be the true patriot you claim to be. Eat some biscuits and gravy and visit your dear old grandma. Go put flowers on the grave of your grandpa who probably fought for your right to grow up privileged. And show some appreciation for the great country you live in.

I am tired of thinking I can’t be openly honest about any of these things. Now, I am going to go pray for this great country I call home.  And then, I am going to do what Christ would do. I am going to act. I am going to write my congressman, donate money to the candidates I support, and read real scholarly work on the issues of this country, so that I can form educated, rational opinions and be a contributing member to real change for the better in this rural paradise I love. We are not all stupid here in rural, southern America. And it is time for the Christian Left in the South to stop being afraid to speak out.



About Melanie Tubbs

Melanie Tubbs is a professor, pastor, mother, Mimi, and true Arkansas woman. She lives with six cats and two dogs on a quiet hill in a rural county where she pastors a church and teaches history at the local university. Her slightly addictive personality comes out in shameful Netflix binges and a massive collection of books. Vegetarian cooking, reading mountains of books for her seminary classes, and crocheting for the churches prayer shawl ministry take up most of her free time, and sharing the love of Christ forms the direction of her life. May the Peace of Christ be with You.

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Comments

  1. Bruce Brown says:

    You are a rare find in the Deep South

    1. Kathy Wagman Dillard says:

      Remember, Arkansas isn’t the Deep South. It’s west of the Mississippi. It just likes to think that it is, like Pennsyltucky and parts of southern Ohio and Indiana. My grandmother would just call it hillbilly with a bit of wild west thrown in. And she had friends from there.

      1. crimsons says:

        Not a rare find. The vast majority of us are like her.

        1. Minerva Mullick says:

          I am glad to her that, but you must stand in solidarity and let your voices be heard!! May the Lord bless you and protect in your journey through the lion’s den!

      2. Betty Eyer says:

        Culturally, it’s pretty darned South. I’ve got no problem with it being included.

        And look at a map. AK is south of Ohio, Indiana or Pennsylvania by a long shot.

        1. Leila Kheiry says:

          AK is Alaska.

        2. derlehrer says:

          Perhaps you should look at a map yourself. Arkansas borders Louisiana to the south, Texas to the southwest, Oklahoma to the west, Missouri to the north, as well as Tennessee and Mississippi on the east — but not Kentucky

      3. Connie Vaughn says:

        Yes, Arkansas is more of an Appalachian culture, as are the “hillbilly” areas you mention in PA, southern OH (where I’m from), IN. It is different than Deep South. That culture has become aligned with the old racist south over the years due to the manipulation of poor whites, but IMO it doesn’t have to be.

      4. k l m says:

        So Louisiana, which is west of the Mississippi, isn’t part of the deep south?

      5. spikedirt says:

        Geographically Arkansas may not be in the “Deep South” but in reality it is. I have lived all over the south and fifteen years in Arkansas. We grow cotton, have a famous civil rights court case in The Little Rock Nine, and voted for George Wallace for president in 1968. The only other states to do that were GA, MS, AL, and LA. We say grace, ma’am, eat grits, and don’t have any money. This is the Heart of Dixie, young lady.

    2. Vally Sharpe says:

      There are a whole lot more of us than you think, and I AM in the Deep South. Always have been. Can read, too, believe it or not.

  2. The Professor says:

    So you condone Hilary’s lies, corruption. How about dead babies and body parts?

    1. carolgardner says:

      At least have the courage to truthfully present yourself on facebook.

      1. Alice Lindsley says:

        But what you said isn’t truthful. That’s the point!

        1. The Professor says:

          What do you mean not truthful? She has been caught in lies and even apologized, and she is corrupt. Proof is out there, Whitewater, IRS, 45,000,000.00 in homes and she claims her and Bill were broke when they left the white house. Supports Monsanto but fails to say she was on their team. She supports Planned Parenthood even after they have been caught breaking the law, by selling baby parts. These are facts. Telling the truth about someone who is wants to run our country is not hatred. Look up hatred in the dictionary. Not agreeing with someone is not hatred.

          1. Alice Lindsley says:

            White Water investigated to death…..no charges/nothing! And most any intelligent American supports PP. It’s only goobers who believe the outed story about selling baby parts. Now go educate yourself and don’t bother people with BS.

      2. The Professor says:

        What difference would that make?

    2. Jason Benesh says:

      Could you add one more thing for the idiot trifecta?

    3. Leigh Gabel says:

      Wow, hate much? And we wonder why people want to kill each other.

    4. pfair143 says:

      1963 Republican Reagan first in country to legalize abortion.
      1970 Republican Nixon funded Planned Parenthood.
      1973 Republican appointed SCOTUS affirmed Roe V Wade.
      Hillary is not a Republican.

      1. The Professor says:

        Shame on these people too. I am not a Republican either. I am an American who cares about our country, I want a better place for our children and their children. I compare where we are going with other countries that have already been there. It doesn’t work. Its been proven.

    5. Jerilyn Bridges says:

      I get it, you actually believe Bush and his lies! You like the idea of the body parts belonging to the already born! Maybe women who die in childbirth is more tour speed! Maybe we see through you and your so called BenGhazi lies!

    6. NotTheMama says:

      You must not be a very good professor if you believe anything about dead babies and body parts.

    7. Alan Ray says:

      Professor, your post is an irrelevant distraction. Most if not all of the allegations against Hillary have been Right-Wing propaganda and have not held up to scrutiny. And Conservatives gave up any credibility on the abortion issue long ago, being hypocrites whose policies make the problem much worse. And I hope you’re not referring to those edited, thoroughly discredited Planned Parenthood videos, because that would make you look
      like a fool.

      1. v2787 says:

        It’s too late for the Professor to worry about looking like a fool. Mission already accomplished.

    8. Alice Lindsley says:

      It sounds as though this woman is speaking to people just like YOU. People filled with hate and ignorance.

      1. The Professor says:

        I have said nothing with hatred in my heart. As a matter of fact I pray before I place my words on here.

        1. Alice Lindsley says:

          Oh please! Who cares what you do?????

        2. mjhoop says:

          Too much “prayer” and too little critical thinking?

    9. mjhoop says:

      Propagandized much?
      I thought so.
      Proof of lies and corruption?
      I thought not.

  3. radsenior says:

    Take your finger off the trigger!

  4. Guest40 says:

    Nicely done Melanie

  5. Amber Aubre Powell says:

    I don’t agree with Melanie. The Bible also says that women are not to be leaders in the church. Women are to teach other women. Marriage is not marriage. Homosexuality love isn’t right and it goes against what God says. People will try to stand up and think they know what they’re talking about.. But this is so far from the truth! Wow!

    1. Leigh Gabel says:

      Seriously? Out of everything the pastor said, THAT is what you took away? No wonder things don’t change and hatred abound. Get out of your Bible, for Christ’s sake. Literally, for Christ’s sake. Every single person has a different interpretation of the Bible and the teachings of Christ. Christ never said anything about homosexuality.

      1. Amber Aubre Powell says:

        Men are interpreters of the Bible! Not women. Yes God did speak about homosexuality! Apparently you don’t read the Bible… Read it more often and then you will find out. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? If you can answer that question then good because that is what God did to the homosexuals in those places. If not, then you should take a look. Leviticus 18:22.

        1. thornyfield says:

          Leviticus is from the old testament, yet in your above comment you stated “Get a clue Melanie, we’re not living in old testament times anymore”. So which is it? Also, “men are the interpreters of the Bible”, really? I don’t know what time period you are living in but today women can teach, vote, drive, and can also interpret the Bible. There are many things listed as ‘abominations’ in the bible, do you follow all those rules? Do you know that the word abomination was translated in a questionable manner? Google is your friend. While you are at it, google Sodom and Gomorrah. You will find that many scholars do not interpret the story the way you do.

          1. Amber Aubre Powell says:

            The Leviticus scripture was to the previous commenter. Not to Melanie. It’s called read first. Yes I do thank you! It’s not woman’s place to teach the Bible! I believe in God’s word, not scholars. Lol! God’s word is true and always will be! 🙂 Her teaching are false and whoever believes this is deceived. Notice how she starts out her article with no humility. This article is her opinion of what she thinks is correct. If you’re going to speak biblically then state your resources/scriptures. If what she said is in the Bible, then post the scriptures where it says that! But she’s stating an opinion as I said. How is she going to post an article with a title “Southern Pastor” when there’s no Biblical evidence of what she’s saying. I don’t listen to man’s word. I listen to God’s word.

            1. David Shaw Jr says:

              If it isn’t a woman’s place to teach the bible, then why are YOU, a woman, trying to teach the bible?

        2. Jerilyn Bridges says:

          Women interpet the Gita! Men are the rapists!

        3. sharoncullars says:

          hope you don’t eat shellfish. and if someone takes you as a slave, know that it is allowable under old testament verse.

        4. Skip Moreland says:

          Sodom and gomorrah was because of a lack of hospitality. Only Lot was willing to offer his daughters to the angels.

          1. Jamie Oliver says:

            Whoe. That’s a new source of incorrect information that I have never heard before. People will come up with all sorts of odd ideas to justify their sin.

            1. pt bridgeport says:

              You could try reading the story yourself. It’s right there in the Bible, and it’s the source of Skip’s information.

        5. Alan Ray says:

          Amber, the Book of Ezekiel says that Sodom was guilty of having plenty but not caring for the poor, among other things. Homosexuality is not mentioned.

          1. v2787 says:

            Shhhh, don’t tell that to the right wingers. They still think the sin of Sodom was about homosexuality, even though Leviticus says it wasn’t.

            1. Jamie Oliver says:

              Excuse me? Where in the world did you get THAT piece of incorrect information??

            2. pt bridgeport says:

              ty,Um, it’s Ezekiel that says it wasn’t.
              Amber has heard the word of men, from a long line of male pastors, who told her that God’s Word says homosexuality is sin, and the sin of Sodom was male-male sex.

              Well, actually the sin in that story was a mob of men breaking down a door in order to rape Lot’s guest to death. Her pastors figured that there is nothing wrong with mob rape, nothing wrong with breaking down your neighbor’s doors to commit murder, nothing wrong with committing violence against strangers in the city simply because they are strangers. Those things, according to her pastors (who have convinced her they spoke only what was written down in the Bible), are perfectly all right. God has nothing whatsoever against hatred of strangers, against rape, against mob rape, against willful destruction of property, against murder. Since God is okay with all those things, it follows that the only sin of the Sodom mob must have been trying to have sex with another male.

              Her pastors don’t know how to read. They do know how to hate. They have done their best to pass both their ignorance and their hate along to her. One may only hope that she someday learns to read God’s Word without the filter of all those bigoted sermons. Learns to read it with God’s own heart. Learns why both Saint Paul and James wrote that God has one law and only one: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

          2. Amber Aubre Powell says:

            Yes the Bible Does talk about Sodom and Gomorrah participating in homosexuality. Read Genesis 18-20! What does the word “know” mean?

        6. Jamie Oliver says:

          In order to support you, I am adding this statement that Jesus said, “And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,” Matthew 19:4. Therefore, anyone who thinks it is ok with Jesus that two men or two women marry, what do you say about this statement Jesus made?

          1. pt bridgeport says:

            Steve and Mike get married to each other, in a double wedding with their dear friends Julie and Carol.

            Two men, two women. Male and female, just as God created them. Where’s the problem?

      2. NotTheMama says:

        The King James version of the Bible was written to appease an angry king and his supporters. People, mostly men of a certain status, sat around in a room and decided what was going to be in the Bible. It wasn’t until the Council of Nicea in 325 that the idea that Jesus was both True God and True Man even became a central doctrine of church teaching. Figure it out. Jesus would be losing his mind if he was around to see the things carried out in his name.

      3. Jamie Oliver says:

        There is no “different interpretation of the Bible.” There is one. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and the New Testament was originally written in Greek. We need to go back to the original languages to find out what the Bible is saying. Also, scripture interprets scripture so one verse is not going to contradict another. If the Old Testament, for example, condemned homosexuality, then the New Testament does, as well. BTW – Jesus DID say something about homosexuality … He said, “And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,” Matthew 19:4.

    2. mjhoop says:

      Do you send out invitations for your stonings?
      Homosexuality is determined in the womb, by DNA, and, like w/ blue eyes and brown eyes we just have to live with what comes out. Why is this so hard for some people to accept?
      I bet you are in favor of slavery, too, right?

      1. Amber Aubre Powell says:

        No it’s not! Whoever told you that is a liar. I believe in God’s word. No people are not born that way. They get caught in a delusion that they are attracted to the same sex. God does not make anyone homosexual. There are plenty of people with testimonies that were once homosexuals and turned from that way of life and turned to God. Homosexuality is an abomination to God.

        1. Jerilyn Bridges says:

          Your god’s word! Not the word of God! God said ” Do no evil to the Earth” God will judge your god for trying to subjugate her! I think you know
          I don’t buy the Original sin story! According to the Mahabarata, that sin was rape! P.S. It has your God as the guilty one!

        2. Cronus says:

          Are you new testamentish, Amber? If so, please post the verse where Jesus addresses the sin of homosexuality. I must have missed it. I’ll be waiting…

        3. sharoncullars says:

          gee, i wonder how you explain homosexuality in the animal kingdom. are animals deluded instead of following their natural instincts? why would god create abomination in the animal kingdom? you mean it isn’t that hormones sometimes get cross-sprayed on the xx and xy zygotes?

        4. Lyndia says:

          I wish we could vote down. It would be interesting to see how many down votes you get. It is people like you, YES YOU, that turn people away from religion. May God have mercy on your soul. (I know several people that were BORN gay. You can see it in them when they are CHILDREN.)

          1. Skip Moreland says:

            You can vote down.

          2. Skip Moreland says:

            There is a down button, but it doesn’t work. Sorry about that.

          3. The Original Just Me says:

            I got a hair cut today. The Fella, that cut it was very nice and did a very good job, We had a Good and friendly conversation while he was working. I am as straight as an arrow but he is my Barber from now on.

          4. Jamie Oliver says:

            Nope. There is NO medical evidence supporting that people are born that way.

          5. Silence Is Golden says:

            You can vote down.

        5. Skip Moreland says:

          Facts tell us. That is what reality is, facts, not fairy tales from the past. You are the one who has been lied to.

        6. David Shaw Jr says:

          When did you decide what you sexual orientation is?

      2. Jerilyn Bridges says:

        You better believe it! The same scriptures that say women obey your husbands say slaves obey your masters! The same scriptures in the Gita that say ” women have the strength” Warn against the Caste system and tell us to Sieze the slave masters!

      3. Jamie Oliver says:

        There is absolutely NO medical information stating that homosexuals are born that way. However, God has a LOT to say about how people reject God and therefore follow a downhill spiral of deviation that leads to homosexuality.

        1. mjhoop says:

          Clearly, you are not keeping up with the science.

          Rejecting God leads to homosexuality?????…if that were not so sad and ignorant, i’d laugh……

          The people who depend on the old Jewish book for their lifestyle, while ignoring totally the NT, which is another (3rd?)covenant with humanity–are pitiful……

          The OT shows us how people are; the NT shows how they could be if only they were not so hard headed…….and if they paid one bit of attention to the word of the Son of God…..but He seems to be ignored by the haters……too sad….

    3. Jerilyn Bridges says:

      Well, I don’t agree with You Christians! In the Gita, it says only among women I am strength, AMONG WOMEN I am the wisdom! Of course the Tomb in Mathura is also empty!

    4. Allgone says:

      Did you miss the part about a separation between church and state? Not all Americans are Christians. And America is not a Christian nation. So going against what “God” said has no legal standing.

      1. John Kline says:

        Strange Christians seem to want to run the country more and more by their religion. I grew up in Louisiana as a Southern Baptist in the 50’s and 60’s. One thing that was praised by my church was that we had separation of state and religion. They also believed that evolution and creationism could co-exist. So these days we have gone back further than the 50’s.

        1. Allgone says:

          It’s getting pretty scary in some places. It’s as if there’s a mad sprint for the bad old days.

    5. Highlandscot says:

      Oh, we’re going to use the Bible, are we? Well cool! Since you’re here Amber, maybe you could enlighten me on some things I’ve been wondering about for a while now. First, since the Bible says I can own slaves, how many would be TOO many? 6? 12? While you’re figuring that out, I would also like to know WHICH religion is the “true” religion. I mean, there are SO many to choose from. Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Disciples of Christ, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Protestant… all supposed to believe in the SAME God, but *way* different rules. My girlfriend wear’s a silk blouse, a satin bra, and cotton jeans. What’s the penalty for that? (Leviticus 19:19) Should I beat her or would a stern talking-to suffice? Speaking of clothes, I let her wear my raincoat the other day during a storm. How much trouble am I in for that? (Deuteronomy 22:5) I see you’re dressed in your picture. Are ALL your clothes made in the U.S.A.? You’re in BIG trouble if you’re wearing anything from say.. China. (Zephaniah 1:8) Finally, there’s that whole Matthew 7:1-3 that keeps running through my head… ” Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      That’s a LOT of questions Amber, but I’m sure if you actually GO READ the Bible, you’ll find all the answers. Especially once you realize all the times Jesus talks about love, forgiveness, and acceptance.

    6. Skip Moreland says:

      Well you aren’t thinking. A book from 2500 yrs ago should rule our thinking? No thanks. Plus if you really believe all that crap, then I will bet according to that old testament, you have sinned many times and deserved to be stoned.

  6. Amber Aubre Powell says:

    Get a clue Melanie, we’re not living in old testament times anymore! Marriage is one man and one woman!

    1. BlueCat says:

      Only if you are Christian and believe in Jesus and the Word of God.

      1. Momoends says:

        no!, it should be for everybody or so she claims. But what if amish were to spread a little among american population to get to be a powerful religion force and they press to get electricity forbidden? i would ask them where it is written electricity is devil and they probably answer me that living as god want us to means no electricity. What should i do? accept it and assume i can´t use electricity or face being offended and called names by amish followers? just because they believe on that?
        It sounds ridiculous …. you think if we tell amber aubre powell about amish spreading consequences she will be able to see the similarities and understand the absurdity of bending to absolute religion-based rules being imposed to us?

    2. Von Bailey says:

      So the old testament is crap and should be ignored? Good to know. Where in the new testament does Jesus condemn gay marriage?

    3. Allgone says:

      Why? Why should states be allowed to base civil rights on your religious beliefs?

    4. Momoends says:

      and that´s not old testament-ly?

  7. joe sanford says:

    You are someone that I can relate to as my beliefs are similar and I live in TN.It ia very hard dealing with people who are not willing to even discuss other views.

    1. The Professor says:

      Yes let’s bend Gods word to suit us!

      1. Thefluff says:

        Is that not what your are doing?

        1. The Professor says:

          I am not. If I am point me in the right direction.

          1. Nani Lawrence Weasley says:

            Obviously that won’t do shit. You have no interest in being a decent human being.

      2. Chase says:

        That’s exactly what those on the right are doing. Are you ever going to make a point or provide any evidence or are you just going to continually be a sarcastic twat the whole time?

        1. Nani Lawrence Weasley says:

          More importantly, willfully ignorant, sarcastic twat…..

  8. Jerilyn Bridges says:

    I love you Melanie, So know that I way this in love as much as in fear: GET THE HELL AWAY FROM the SOUTH! It’s dangerous these days!

  9. PK Mitchell says:

    A I deeply admire your courage. As a Methodist clergy woman in New England I can and do say all you have said without fear. I realize the risk you are taking to be a true prophetess. Preach my sister in Christ!

  10. Carol B says:

    I agree with most everything she said except for about half of number 10. Before anybody starts calling me racist..my reasoning for that is that at the time, most southern states were trying to separate from the north so they actually thought they were fighting for their own new country..and most of the soldiers were conscripted..like selective service..if you got called you had to go. Like all wars..then and now..the rich call and the young poor fight and die..and sometimes for reasons they don’t understand or have a choice in. To show disregard for the young southern soldiers by calling them treasonous terrorists (some were barely in their teens) is..to me..an ugly statement and representation of us as Americans. My family are originally from the mountains of Tennessee…none of them were wealthy enough to own slaves (a lot of mountain people had never seen an African American) and they fought with the Union Army.

    1. Zarahti says:

      As a Southerner whose family has been in NC & SC territory since before the American Revolution and had two direct ancestors fight for the Confederacy (and at least one for the Union) I say that you are wrong. They may have thought they “were fighting for their own country” but the way that country was to be formed was by destroying the United States of America. Their leaders committed treason and so did they by following. As for the people who like to claim the heritage-not-hate codswallop, the only reasonable response is “Your heritage is owning other people like cattle and attempting to destroy the United States. Congratulations; that’s really something to be proud of.”

      1. Jack Savage says:

        By both of your logic’s then the formation of this country was also one by which the founding fathers committed treason, is that not correct?

        As for that “Confederate flag” My family got here in the early 1900s…. and they considered it a part of Southern Pride (this is where they made their home). They never owned any slaves. And were in fact in some cases of the family ..Moorish in descent. And some still feel it symbolizes the right to be proud and southern.

        1. Jennie Hallbrown says:

          Does this help clarify things? It is completely racist

          1. Jack Savage says:

            OK, seeing how your ignorance knows no bounds. Who designed the Square flag, commonly called the “Confederate Flag” but known as “Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag,

            Lets see.. NOT William T. Thompson. Love the memes but you do not know the history. designed by William Porcher Miles. So when you actually have done some reading and know which flag is which. And why people actually do not fly the First, Second, or Third National Flag of the CSA. Then get back to me. As of right now; you have not enough knowledge to carry on any sort of point-counterpoint debate. Good day.

            1. Jennie Hallbrown says:

              And this makes you any less racist how? It is racist and you are too pathetic to either see it or admit it

            2. Jack Savage says:

              That is the best you have? The “because I said so defense”? Really? What are you? Two?

            3. Jack Savage says:

              As for racist? See the other entry. You are embarrassing yourself. I am sure a number of my family would love laughing in your face at you calling me a racist. Especially seeing how there is every race, religion and ethnicity in my family but a few.

          2. Jack Savage says:

            As it stands. This article was about Southerners not being stupid, and ignorant. Many family members have not only Bachelor’s degrees; but advanced degrees. North Carolina is one of the larger hubs for Biotech Research; and Atlanta is a technology corridor that is experiencing massive growth in the data center and tech realms. Myself; I am going for my Master’s at present.

            I have many family members of all races. My family has always made it a tradition to serve in the military; and we just wind up all over. Black, white, red, brown, and yellow; we all coexist amazingly well. One Asian cousin wears a Southern Cross on her riding jacket because she got it from Brantley Gilbert upon her return to the states. BG is most definitely NOT any form of racist.

            You will never see any of these people flying A national flag of the confederacy. And you will see many of them with not only American flags; but many symbols of pride. Pagan pride (my daughter); Catalonia heritage (my son), even Catholic and other symbols. Like others they make their own choices. And they decide what makes their pride. Many conservatives; call the rainbow flag hateful and discriminatory; many White supremacists call the flying of any number of the Latino flags racist and anti-American; many Native Americans that have AIM leanings, consider the American Flag not only racist but a symbol of genocide (and in a lot of ways…. well they are right).

            So before you get all up on the high horse. Maybe you should do some research on the flag of this country; and what it symbolizes. I take pride in it, but I know like any civilization we have had our good moments and our bad. And I served my time in the military for that Flag, The Constitution and my brothers in arms.

            I would suggest; you do some research… because at this point… you are out to lunch.

        2. nnyl says:

          Actually, from the British perspective, our founding fathers did commit treason…the difference is they won they war. They knew they were doing so. They expected to hang if they failed. Nathan Hale did hang when he was captured as a spy.

          General Robert E Lee said to fold the confederate flag up and put it away. The confederate battle flag started waving in the mid-20th century as a way to thumb noses at the feds for desegratation laws. That flag of a rebellion to uphold the right to own people as slaves (whether your ancestors owned any or not that is what the secession documents state), is all about white supremacy, but go ahead and wave it. Tells everyone else who you are.

          1. mjhoop says:

            And in what other environment do the losers get to brag on their rebellion and wave their own flag to remind the rest of us that they lost? Sorry to be snarky, but I would like to have a single country again, one flag, one allegiance, and one people.
            Of course, the people of color among us have–in general– never felt part of this country, It would be a blessing, IMO, if they were included. Then we’d be less like ISIS and more like civilized people.

            1. nnyl says:

              We’ve never had one people. We don’t even have one culture. The American culture is a mismash of multiple cultures. If you travel around the backroads and bayous, you see all these subcultures that are as different from each other as cultural differences between countries. It would indeed be a blessing if everyone felt part of this country. We’ve made progress, but we are still far from the ideals equality or justice for all. It is an on going struggle to get this country to evolve and live up to its potential and ideals.

            2. mjhoop says:

              I’ve traveled. Ditto your thoughts.

        3. GM Miller says:

          What would you say to the person who wanted to wave the Nazi flag because they are proud of being German?

          The Civil War was about slavery. Period. What is there to be proud of?

          If you want a flag of Southern Pride, why not one with a porch swing, a pitcher of sweet tea, fried chicken and a watermelon?

          All of my family has been Southern, and some from before the Revolutionary War. I don’t see much to be proud of. Poverty, ignorance, good ole boy politics

        4. Zarahti says:

          Yes, it was treason. We won, and the victors write the history. I’m happy the colonies won their independence, but that doesn’t change the empirical fact that they rebelled against the government that administered the land they were living on.

      2. Carol B says:

        You can say and think about me whatever you like…doesn’t make you right. Like for instance after reading your running commentary on my family and our morality, I’m inclined to think you’re an opinionated know it all who likes to hear him/her self talk…but that’s ok..my ancestors fought for that..in the Revolutionary war, the civil war, my dad was in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam…I presently have a nephew just home from Afghanistan. There’s my heritage…and none of them that I knew or know would be cruel or holier than thou enough to speak like you. If your heart is such a freaking lump of coal that you have no feeling for some fellow human beings then I feel sorry for you. Your “reasonable response” is pathetic and you need to grow some empathy in that barren wasteland of your mind.

        1. GM Miller says:

          So what would you say to the families of those who fought for Germany in WWII?

          Would people be supportive of remembering the sacrifice of those young men for the cause they were duped into?

          1. Carol B says:

            As a mother, I have sympathy for everyone who’s lost a child. It’s the worst thing I can imagine.

          2. joycecoolidge says:

            Honestly, I think that most soldiers all over the world, are duped or forced to fight.

        2. Zarahti says:

          Every generation on both sides of my family since the founding of the country has had members perform military service. My brother was in the opening assault on Iraq (and served there until his tank was taken out by “friendly fire”) and my husband did two combat tours in Iraq. I’m sorry your poor ickle fee-fees were hurt by the truth. If you are proud of a heritage that consists of owning other human beings like cattle, then I’m obviously not the one in this conversation who is a horrible person.

          1. Carol B says:

            After reading all this over again…I never said one word about being proud of anything to do with slavery or called it my heritage…in fact I pointed out that my ancestors had zilch to do with slavery and fought for the Union Army in the Civil War…my comment was and still is that young people die in wars not of their making. You haven’t hurt my feelings one iota. I’m just sorry that you’re so bitter and unfeeling…but mostly that you hijacked a relatively mild statement that I made (after agreeing with every other thing the writer of the article wrote…plus let me add that we have a biracial grandson and live in a very diverse area) and made it all about you and your beliefs..I’m also sorry you’re ashamed of being a southern person..there are a lot of good people here. I won’t be answering your vitriol again..and I know you’ll have to have the last word so have at it.

            1. pt bridgeport says:

              There is a lot in the South to feel proud of and to be loyal to. After all, Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King are children of the South. There’s an endearing tradition of hospitality, a matchless cuisine, powerful authors, a rich heritage of musical styles from Foster to Delta blues to Cajun and on and on.

              What I as a Northerner simply cannot understand is: why decide that the symbol for all that is good about the South’s past and present should be the battle flag adopted by men who plainly declared that the holy cause for which they were seceding and fighting was nothing more nor less than the perpetuation of slavery and the securing of white supremacy? Of course that doesn’t summarize all that the South was and is. But it summarizes everything which that flag stood for, both at the moment it was created and at the moment it was revived by white Southerners protesting against desegregation.

              So why not adopt a different symbol for your pride? One which doesn’t send sharp darts of pain into the hearts of all the people of color who share the region with you?

            2. Carol B says:

              Hi PT…thanks for not hating on the south as a whole…it’s frustrating being thought of as something we really are not….
              I lived in Michigan near Lake Michigan for 20 years…it’s an extremely beautiful place with a lot to offer..yet I constantly see it belittled in forums as the home of Detroit, corruption, and the new Missisippi.

    2. joycecoolidge says:

      Scott Co, by chance? My TN ancestors were with the Union too. That probably means we’re related (in multiple ways!)-haha!

      1. Carol B says:

        Rhea and Bledsoe (aka Bloody Bledsoe)…we went to the Strawberry Festival in Dayton…my daughter asked me if we were related to anyone..I told her probably half of the town. Lol I was born in TN..lived a good part of my life in MI, WI and FL..now back in the south. My dad used to say you can’t take the hills out of somebody who was born there..I guess he was right..

  11. PK Mitchell says:

    I admire your courage. As a United Methodist clergy woman in New England I can and do say all you have said without fear of retribution . I know the risks you are taking to speak your truth. You are a true prophetess. Preach my sister in Christ!

  12. John Kline says:

    Great article and very true. From a lone liberal in NE Louisiana.

  13. John Kline says:

    Comments show how judgmental and bigoted “Christians” can be.

    1. Dafoxxy says:

      Lol, well aren’t we the two-faced one? So, you read all these comments and see only Christians being bigoted and judgmental? You are truly a sad, sad person!

      1. John Kline says:

        Christians can be the most hate filled, bigoted people there are. I still remember when they fought integration so hard.

        1. Dafoxxy says:

          That’s fine sir. But come on!!! If you truly read the comments you see the hate is mainly coming from the more liberal posters! Much more hate. And who is that directed at? Not other liberals! This is what is wrong with people like this, they only see through tunnel vision. And why must everyone always find things in history to point out? Most people were NOT even born back then. I mean, I was born, but I was a kid. Why must I, or people like me constantly be compared to, and hated for those way back then. Liberals LOVE to go clear back to the Crusades to bash Christianity. I mean come on!!!

          1. John Kline says:

            The article was excellent. Most of the comments are pointing out how bigoted Christians can be especially in areas like I live in in the South. Republicans rule here but base their religion on what I call the Republican Revised Edition of the Bible which seems to leave out all the loving others and helping the less fortunate.

            1. Dafoxxy says:

              Oh, I’m sure. And I do not condemn calling out people, in general. But come on! Why is it that people only see issues with Republicans? Most speak without even knowing or caring about the true Democrat party past! It used to be that, though I am registered as a Republican, I voted for the best person for the job. Couldn’t care less about party affiliation. Not now. I will NEVER vote for another democrat. They are the most hate filled people I have ever been around, or known. They will not listen to any sort of reason. And they lie out both sides of their mouths. Not that either party has a lock on being truthful. And now, today, this country has not been this divided since…well since I was a child. And yes, that rests squarely on the shoulders of the leaders in the White House now. people may have hated the Bush administration, but they sure as heck did not pit people against each other like this bunch does daily! As for the article, some points I might agree with, others not so much. My question is why would the Pastor stay and deceive his/her flock? More of the Liberal Democratic way!

            2. John Kline says:

              You have things totally backwards. This White House has not divided people. It is the racists that hate having a black President that have done that. People have issues with Republicans more because they are so sanctimonious. They called themselves the party of family values and Christian values. But they have stopped that now since they realized it was no longer true. And if I were in need, I surely would not go to the Republicans because they care nothing about helping people.

            3. Dafoxxy says:

              I will end my discussion with you sir. While I thought you could be different, I was wrong. Anyone who does not see this divided country. And the fact it has only become this way/bad since 2009….there is no point to attempting a conversation. I’m sure you agree with the favorite chant of the supposed oppressed! “Pigs in a blanket, Fry em like bacon”. Yes sir, no Democrat I know or have talked to will disagree with the protesters. Even on that one. Including our President! Easy to see why, because they all agree! Good day/night!

            4. John Kline says:

              “Pigs in a blanket, Fry em like bacon”. How dare you to suggest that I agree with that slogan. Does show what kind of character you have or don’t have.

            5. Dafoxxy says:

              That is a slogan from your side of the spectrum! We were originally discussing hateful Christians, and Republicans! My good sir, that is from people who agree with you! Not so fun when you get lumped in with other crazy people from the Democrat side is it? Did you not, and has not most every other poster who agrees with the article, do the same thing? You all throw every Republican in with any crazy Republican out there. And you feel superior while doing it! Seems our “character” is alike, no? Lol.

            6. John Kline says:

              You are just upset with the author who shows how far from the Bible the Republican :”Christians” have gotten.

            7. Dafoxxy says:

              No, I even stated I agree with a lot said. I do however take issue with anyone who hides who they are, to deceive those she/he is supposed to be leading. Pastors are supposed to be above this sort of thing. She is being exactly like the politicians in this country, only to her flock. I submit it would not take very long to find out her views versus those of her Church, were not the same. Yet she chose to deceive them. Why? If you have differing views, leave, or, change their views. Again, my only reason for replying to you in the first place was your comment about hateful Christians. As if Christians of any party, or people of any walk of life, can’t be hateful. 90% of you “normal” peoples comments are hateful and directed at Christians and Republicans. Never calling out your own. That was the only thing I attempted to make clear with the “pigs” comment. Way to many are hateful and mean. Christians and Republicans do not have a lock on hate. ALL other groups can hate just as well….and do!

            8. Dafoxxy says:

              Seems the Admins must not have liked my last reply to you, and deleted it. I simply pointed out how Liberals, and Democrats in general, hate when their own actions are pointed out to them. The slogan comes from people on your side. People who support the people/things, you support. Mainly the Democrat party. It is a favorite of Democrats to lump all Republicans together with any crazy Republican out there. But Democrats cry foul when it is done to them. Wonder why that is. Anyway, good day to you sir. It is my hope you have a splendid day. I truly mean that.

  14. hunkabarry1 says:

    Believing in false religion is a sign of ignorance.

  15. Ellen Mentessi Zarnick says:

    Well said. I hope your courageous stand helps others .

  16. Kim Serrahn says:

    As an Agnostic I agree with her 100%

  17. Mike Mitchell says:

    Well spoken, well reasoned and so very different from so many other “Christians” out there. I have often said I have no problem with Christianity… I have a problem with many Christians. The writer is one of them that I can support fully in her beliefs.

  18. Michelle Michaels says:

    Melanie, I am so grateful you have the courage to tell the truth. I came out of the Christian Right and then discovered the Christian Left. It is always very comforting to find more Christian who believe like myself. God bless you!

    1. DS says:

      People who are educated and intelligent are rising above the brain-washing the cultish Christian right has become and they are leaving in droves. I used to be republican, but it has become all the crazies… extremists and fanatics who have taken over. Make no mistake – it has become a very dangerous cult. I am very happy you escaped and followed your truth.

      1. Brian Lacy says:

        they only can take over if we let them – stating that they have taken over is just what they want you to believe?

    2. James Adams says:

      Indeed, we all want to find our cliques, don’t we, so we can think we are right and righteously so.

      1. The Professor says:

        Ecclesiastes 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

      2. Chase says:

        Thanks for making our point for us.

  19. Buddy Alton says:

    I agree with PART of what she said. Which part? Well, since I don’t care to argue with small minded people tonight I’ll keep that to myself and simply post a scriptural reference. Luke 22:36

    1. Jack Savage says:

      That was kind of my thoughts on it too.

    2. shediac says:

      And dozens of times Jesus said what about violence? Also “He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied. So if two weapons amongst a dozen men why do everyone need a gun?

      1. Dick Stafford says:

        Jesus said on the way to the cross, when two disciples tried to defend him, “Live by the sword , die by the sword.”
        Pretty clear Jesus did NOT support the ownership or use of any weapon . Period. And he would NOT approve if gun ownership today .

        1. David Shaw Jr says:

          My feeling is that the violent words were inserted into Jesus’s mouth to justify war.

  20. Angela Palmer says:

    Wonderfully and beautifully written, thank you!

  21. eilish99 says:

    Thank you for speaking out!!

  22. loganbacon says:

    We agree and we support you!

  23. Brian Hunter says:

    You are an amazing follower of Christ. Thank you for saying it like it is. Christ said many unpopular things in his day in the scripture….So many people who claim to be “Christian” have not read or studied the bible. I heard God and Christ’s message in your article. Thanks for living the mesaage as well.

    1. Momoends says:

      we are forgetting here that jesus christ left no scriptures. but christianity is based of a book of rules. He said “you are the first stone of my temple” because he wanted people to be their own sacred place, but the most important representation of god in earth lives in the enormous and fastuoso vaticano, he destroyed fariseos “shops” in the temple because he wanted his legacy isolated or corrupted by economic, politic and social interests, so it could remain solid forever but here you have his apostles=priests and bishops publicly criticizing government´s actions and measures not matter if it´s about social concerns, economic strategies or new educational subjects taught, being even more shocking by the fact that they stand aggressively about measures not forced on them at all, but being given to other people without any kind of influence on their community; using her power to influence voters so they can negotiate the increase of the amount of funds received out of the nation´s treasury. He cleaned his apostles feet so they learned that if he, the “important” divine heir of GOD, was a modest man, and serve others, they should always be modest people, but here you have his disciples/actual christians shouting names to those different, showing the prepotence of those who believe they are always right and therefore better than the rest, howling “GOD hates you” to homosexuals and calling others to meet and physically intimidate abortion doctors and those they considered condemned by holding demonstration against´t them at their job doors, neighborhood and community…
      The day Christians honor their name and follow Christ teachings instead of a book written by who knows who and adoring saint´s figures in luxurious and expensive temples, this world is going to be such a better place, in its way to become the one Jesus Christ meant to be

  24. Randy Rain says:

    If more “Christians” shared your outlook I would not feel so ostracized from the church. Thank you.

    1. Lyndia says:

      You got that right.

    2. The Professor says:

      If more Christians spoke like him. Then they would not be Christians. Don’t you get it? Christians have a book of Gods laws they must follow! Matthew 5:17

      1. James Adams says:

        Right…. with no exceptions.

        1. Tim Creamer says:

          Then why don’t you follow what jesus taught?

          1. James Adams says:

            You have decided I don’t, I assume. How blessed.

          2. The Professor says:

            I try to. Everyday I try. The darkness is spreading, hatred is in abundance. But, I try. I pray everyday for the Lord to come and awaken us. To give me strength to do his will.

            1. jimv1983 says:

              You don’t have a clue how delusional you sound do you?

              “I pray everyday for the Lord to come and awaken us. To give me strength to do his will.”

              LOL

        2. Chase says:

          No exceptions huh? Have you ever read Leviticus or Deuteronomy? Both books are filled with a myriad of absolutely ridiculous ‘laws’ that not a single person here probably follows.

          1. James Adams says:

            And that means what for you?

      2. Randy Rain says:

        Hey “Professor” don’t you get it? The book of “God’s laws” as you put it is nothing short of a book written and edited by men who’s sole interest was and is exerting patriarchal control over their congregants. If this text were “divinely inspired” as I’m sure that you believe it would not be filled with contradictory “rules”. Then of course your critical thinking skills as well as reading comprehension would probably prevent you from seeing the truth, considering the fact that you weren’t even capable of discerning the fact that the author of the article is a female.

        1. Chase says:

          BOOM. Truth bombed.

        2. Momoends says:

          there´s nothing divinely about christianity… suddenly it comes to my mind.. jesus´s birthday, jesus divinity, and many other christian celebrations that, surprise, coincide with pagan and antique rituals already being held by population

      3. Chase says:

        Matthew 7:1, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

        1. The Professor says:

          John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

          1. Randy Rain says:

            There are a couple of those contradictory rules I was talking about. Speaking of cherry picking scripture when was the last time that you ate shellfish? Wore fabrics made of multiple fibers? And last time I checked “Biblical marriage” was polygamous.

      4. Ray Dubuque says:

        If you’re a professor, has your education included a good course in the rules of correct thinking, i.e. logic? I’ve been a seminary professor of both Christianity and logic and I challenge you to make sense of all of these CONTRADICTIONS found in what you proclaim as “GOD’S LAWS”: http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/inerrancy.html . Rev. Ray D.

    3. DS says:

      I do not feel ostracized from the church… in fact it is the opposite. They are ostracized from me because they are the least christian people i know by and large. I do not go to church because it is filled with people who have an agenda to control people based upon their prejudices and they try to use the bible, Jesus and God to justify their horrible behavior. I want nothing to do with them, thus the reason I cannot support organized religion. Period. Do not feel ostracized because you are the good person who left the bad. Not the other way around.

      1. 1968_Camaro says:

        There are progressive church communities out there for you to enjoy. Not ALL churches adhere to a conservative mockery of Christianity. Many Episcopal parishes are liberal, as are United Church of Christ (UCC), and the Unitarian Universalist denomination is liberal. If you are a Baptist, look for the American Baptist Church, a liberal alternative that is welcoming to all. I have found my home in a progressive Episcopal parish. Hang in there, and never give up!

        1. mjhoop says:

          Every time i had to stand and say i believed in everlasting life and this and that episcopal stuff, i felt like real hypocrite.

          To my way of thinking, the main reason for churches is that we have evolved to deal with a group of 150 people at the most. A “church family” serves as that group for people who don’t have their own relatives and close friends (and there are many of us in that situation).

          When we are expected –as we are in modern life –to live among a group larger than 150 we don’t have close relationships with all the people and it doesn’t serve our inherent need for a more-or-less intimate social support system.

          A church of about 150 people provides help and support in time of need, intimate social interactions, and people who are more likely to agree with our mindset than not. (So we don’t have to be on guard 24/7 and can be accepted and acceptable without worrying about social status or income or whatever)

          It’s evolution. A God helps us cope with natural forces and provides a common language to the group. God takes the blame, the responsibility, the cause, and the effect. Handy, one-stop shopping for the psychic help we all need.

          So glad I moved on to trying to act like and emulate Jesus and not try to keep up with an angry and self-described jealous “God.”

          Dominionism is something i try to avoid. And I believe in being a decent person until i return to dust –and stay there— just another grain of sand on the beach and not so self-important that i feel the need to sprout wings and walk on sidewalks of gold in a boring forever life.

        2. E-ticket-lizabeth says:

          The Disciples of Christ is also a liberal denomination as a whole, although it is very independent so you may find particular churches that are quite conservative. We love our DOC church and (female) pastor!

          1. joycecoolidge says:

            I had thought that the author of this article might be a Disciple, so I googled her and found that she’s not. The DOC I go to is about 50/50 on the progressive/conservative scale. The wonderful thing is that we accept one another.

    4. The Professor says:

      Just pick up the bible. That’s where you will find the living God. Men can make mistakes. Gods word is no mistake.

      1. Randy Rain says:

        Oh I’ve read it cover to cover several times. There is much wisdom to be gleaned from it, but it is most certainly not the inspired word of any god benevolent or otherwise. There have been enlightened souls who have walked the earth and Jesus Christ was most surely one, but the words in that book that you so adore were written down by men who by your own admission make mistakes. Not only were they written by fallible men they were written down no less than 100 years after the fact in the case of the new testament, and as much as several hundred years in the case of the old testament, and unless you can read ancient Greek and Aramaic then the version that you read has been translated several times. No sir you are wrong, the living God is not in that tired dead text. The living God is in the hearts of TRUE Christians, people like pastor Melanie Tubbs who penned the original article that has you in such a state.

        1. The Professor says:

          2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itchy ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.

          1. mjhoop says:

            ….via Fox propaganda network…..

          2. Ann says:

            Yep, look in the mirror when you say that.

          3. Ellen H. says:

            Sounds like today’s republican party’s form of Christianity.

        2. Schcotty says:

          Hear, hear! The Bible was transcribed by fallible men, who most likely were also quite vain and full of themselves, as well as full of sin. Hey, nobody’s perfect, but Pastor Melanie Tubbs is much closer to perfect than, say, Pastor Mike Huckabee.

          “And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love. And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”

        3. Momoends says:

          anddddd……SCOREEEESSSS!!

      2. jimv1983 says:

        The bible is fiction. It isn’t proof of anything.

  25. Theresa Thomas says:

    As a fellow Arkansan and member of the Christian Left, I understand your frustration. Unless I’m in the privacy of my own home (or with my grown children) I also censor myself and it’s frustrating. But the alternative is arguments with my family and co workers. So I just bite my tongue when they’re wrongheaded because I prefer peaceful relations. I salute your decision to stand up and let the world know your true self.

    1. Brian Lacy says:

      Another way to look at it is Jesus took bold direct action against money lenders in temples and against the injustice of slavery. Nothing like having a “dream” or “conversion” and wondering what it may mean . . . when shared with others.

    2. ianerc says:

      As long as you try to get along and they aren’t, you are supporting them.
      Edmund Burke:
      No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter
      himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavours
      are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united Cabals of
      ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must
      associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a
      contemptible struggle.

  26. Jason Lane Johnson says:

    I love your beautiful words. Thank you for being true to Christ. I cannot tell you the joy it brings to my heart to know there are people like you in the world. We can make a better world if we work together.

  27. gale wells says:

    I’m all for sharing this! To many times I have scrolled past hate posts! So, if you can share hate filled cartoons I can definitely share an article written by a woman who is a true Christian!

  28. moecat says:

    Wow! I know a few supposed christians who could learn a few things from her!

    1. Lyndia says:

      I know MANY Christians, that could learn a LOT from her.

  29. Marty Holden says:

    As an avowed Atheist, I can say with absolutely no thought of mental reservation, Bravo! Well Said.

    1. Mike Hitchcock says:

      This. Exactly this.

    2. The Professor says:

      Only because he’s speaking like an Atheist

      1. DS says:

        No, he is speaking like people used to believe and live when I was a child growing up. Before the christian sect decided to run the lives of others based upon their own prejudices, not on WWJD mentality. He is a true Christian man and I do believe in God… I am not an atheist. I just know what a real christian is supposed to be like.

        1. Jenny says:

          SHE is speaking like someone who actually believes in living HER faith. Pastor does not automatically mean male.

        2. Slap says:

          THE AUTHOR IS FEMALE. quite being a misogynistic idiot. SHE IS A PASTOR and SHE wrote this article. Now if you were a real Christian, then you would apologize for your sexist view and correct your language and start referring to the author as a SHE. Melanie Tubbs. There may have been a boy name Sue, but I highly doubt there is a man named Melanie.

      2. Chase says:

        Please, show us where she sounds like an atheists. Do you even read the bible or do you just like to use Christianity to justify your hate and political agenda?

        1. ozoozol says:

          Hm, perhaps many atheists sound more like Christians than most Christians do, then?

          1. cocreator says:

            It’s important to actually read what people say, and not go off on some an irrelevant tack. Marty said “as an avowed atheist,” he agrees with the author. No mention of the author being an atheist. Difficult to have an intelligent conversation if we’re just talking past each other.

            1. ozoozol says:

              Wouldn’t that be nice? but since a crucial comment in this thread (that is, by the way, several weeks old now, in case you forgot to check the timestamps) has been deleted, it’s impossible to “read what people said.”

              If you’d had an opportunity to read that comment, you would have had more context for the exchange.

        2. The Professor says:

          I don’t have hatred in my heart for anyone on here. I am sad with how our country has so easily accepted the death of innocents, then we wonder how a young man doesn’t respect life when he murders 9 people. Please tell me, what is my political agenda? My Faith tells me that murder is wrong. My bible tells me that from the moment of conception there is life, because the Lord knew us before we were in the womb. My Agenda is to harvest souls for God. I can’t do it by tricking you into “liking” God with lies. Because anyone who decides to follow is going to read the bible for themselves and then see that I misled them. I have to speak from Gods own words. Not only that. If you are going to lead the way to Christ and you send the wrong message. Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. God bless

          1. motstraumen says:

            How is she in any way an atheist? Are you saying that abortion is what has led to the killing sprees? What of all the innocents that we shrug off in countless wars, what of the born infants whose parents are shamed because they need to ask for help or worse are not given help because they made the choice to keep the child, Every time Jesus was confronted by a legalist he pushed the Torah to the breaking point to prove that the most “law abiding” was indeed lost. Do you teach yourself that? Ms. Tubbs is speaking out from her reading of scripture just as much or more than you are. We in this country have lifted up the self over the other for too long. Are you seeking out those souls that are worshiping the nation and a deranged idealism over above the God that spoke and it was?

          2. Philboid Studge says:

            “My bible tells me that from the moment of conception there is life, because the Lord knew us before we were in the womb.”

            I don’t understand how one thing follows from the other. If the Lord knew us before we were in the womb, then your Bible must be telling you that there is life before conception.

            1. Roy Merritt says:

              You cannot use that passage that life begins when the Lord knew you. Conception takes place when the zygote attaches to the womb wall. God is said to knit together in the womb. fertilization takes place in the fallopian tube and the zygote changes several times. The zygote can divide into 2 or 3 zygotes and then go back together. Does that maen that the infant will have 3 souls or does the single zygote have one souls and the twin or triplets have no soul. There is no life until God says there is life and like the Jews believe and they use the same Bible only no New Testament. Life begins as God says when at first breath he became a living soul.

            2. Jerilyn Bridges says:

              Thank you! Misquoting Scriptures makes it easy for us heathen to answer back! Try at least to be truthful! Might make us think tou know something!

            3. Roy Merritt says:

              Show the misquoting of Scripture. Please read Genesis Chapter 2 vs. 7

            4. Barry52 says:

              That was Adam. What you call a zygote moving around IS God “stitching” together the form of the baby. When the sperm meets the egg then life is sparked. DNA is formed at conception. What is DNA? The building blocks of LIFE.

              Scientific textbooks proclaim this fact. Keith L. Moore’s The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003) states the following:

              A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.

            5. jimv1983 says:

              Conception and fertilisation are really the save same thing. That is when life begins. It’s basic human biology.

            6. TRussert says:

              And after death too.

            7. homo cogitans says:

              You have not read Jewish law….

            8. Momoends says:

              no, tell us about it

            9. OrganicForLife says:

              So if you put a man or woman to death you are, by definition, killing the children they should have had? Hmmm

            10. SnoGo says:

              Let’s follow that just a bit further, then potential children are killed when a woman ovulates and it is not fertilized. Then every menstrual period is a murder? And every time a man ejaculates, murder is being committed? I’ve heard people call contraception – “pre-abortion”. Reduction ad absurdum, I know.

            11. Lippyone says:

              Don’t be ignorant.. If no fertilization has taken place, there is not person.

            12. Saltydog says:

              Fertilization makes a “person”?? Um, no. If it did, then if the zygote later splits into two embryos, one of them is not a person (since the same thing can’t be a person and two persons!). But if the number of embryos is indeterminate, there is at least one *potential* person upon fertilization. And there’s no reason to privilege one potential person over another–no, there are actually from 1 to n *potential persons* after fertilization, and 0 actual persons.

              That all follows directly from your (very) peculiar definition of “person”. Of course, your premise that a “person” can in any way be identified by some scientific standard is just silly. Personhood is a matter of development and social agreement. The supreme court has found the approximate consenus: personhood begins about when the fetus becomes independently viable. There is no biological description of personhood any more than there is of ‘old enough to vote’.

            13. Lippyone says:

              What you say you say with conviction, even though what you say is not really correct. Fertilization makes a human being. A person, semantics.. All eggs that get fertilized are human beings. Your logic as to the number leaves one to believe there are millions of eggs, and sperm to combine. This is not true. Normally there is one egg but, millions of sperm trying to fertilize the one egg. Sometimes the one egg may divide into two. Then you get identical twins (look alike) , if two eggs would happen to be fertilized you would get fraternal twins. (don’t necessarily look alike) Either way they are all human beings.

            14. Saltydog says:

              my logic does *not* lead to the conclusion that “there are millions of eggs…”etc. Even if it did, it wouldn’t be relevant to where my logic does lead–to the observation that “personhood” isn’t a biological concept, but a social one. Your frankly incoherent argument to the contrary rather illustrates the confusions that arise when u attempt to define social agreements in biological terms.

            15. Lippyone says:

              Lets just use scientific ones then. When fertilization occurs a new life is created. If that life is not interfered with it will continue to develop until death, regardless if it is at one week or 90 years. The only argument you have for abortion is a social one. Interfering with a life causes death. Socially you can pick the stage you choose, but the death is to a created life.

            16. Saltydog says:

              Re “the only argument you have for abortion is a social one.” Uh, yes, abortion law involves “social arguments”, and yes, that’s the kind of argument I have, and its the kind of argument you don’t seem to have. If you don’t have social arguments, there’s not much to say about abortion law, or any other law. I’d have thought that was obvious.

              Science can provide descriptions of natural processes… but science doesn’t make laws–which require… social argument.

              As for the description of fertilization as creating new life… this is definitely not a *scientific* description if is is supposed to mean that sperm and egg are not alive. In fact, the scientific description of reproduction doesn’t use the concept of “life” at all–because that concept doesn’t explain anything. Is skin cell alive that might be scratched off your arm when you itch? Is a virus alive? Is mold alive? No scientist debates these things because they are not relevant to science, which is concerned with such things as how molds and viruses and skin cells reproduce themselves. Likewise, sperms and eggs are other biological entities that seek to reproduce themselves. If “life” means anything, it encompasses molds, viruses, skin cells, sperms, eggs, fertilized eggs, fetuses, and infants.

              To the question, when does life begin, there is only one *scientifically* sensible answer, and it’s not one that bears on abortion at all: “life” was created/began 3.8 billion years ago, initially with single-celled prokaryotic cells, such as bacteria. “Life” has evolved since then, in an unbroken process of reproduction with variation (i.e., it has evolved continuously).

              The idea that “life” starts at some arbitrary point in the reproduction process doesn’t come from science. And, I suspect, anti-abortion people by and large don’t give a fig for science. They just want to stipulate that a fertilized egg should be treated as a person. That would be an intelligible argument, but it goes crazy when they then say the reason is because science says that life begins there. It doesn’t.

            17. Saltydog says:

              I guess I should note that even if you don’t care for the scientific answer, because it involves evolution (and I believe most anti-choice people don’t like science or evolution), the continuity problem remains: human life doesn’t begin anywhere–every cell in our body is consumed with the same problem: reproducing its DNA. The sperm and the egg are just as consumed with this task as is the fertilized egg as is the fetus as is the infant. “Life” is present at all stages, and there is not a moment in which “a new life starts”. The debate is about the social perception, when in this process should we identify something as a “person” with the rights of one? The Supreme Court’s answer is consistent with many religious traditions in pointing to viability. You can disagree, but there’s not recourse to science to make your case.

            18. Lippyone says:

              Very poor information in this post. I love science, dislike evolution. Please don’t equate the Supremes decision on abortion to any religious traditions about viability. Christianity is very clear, a new human begins at fertilization. Period…

            19. Saltydog says:

              You love science… except when you don’t like the results of scientific research, yes, I know, that’s what I predicted you’d say, didn’t I? Let me guess, you also don’t credit the science of climate change either. Am I right?

            20. Lippyone says:

              I believe climate has changed recently, but I’m not sure it’s caused by man. I believe the ocean pollution is more serious than air pollution. It’s a fact that most computer models that predict severe storms, etc. have been wrong.

            21. Saltydog says:

              Wow, I’m batting 100%? I predicted that when you said you “loved science” that meant you didn’t “love” evolution and then the same for climate science, that you’re idea of science excluded science that arrived at perspectives you were uncomfortable with. And so it also excludes developmental biology as has become obvious in your posts, as it quietly refuses to testify on behalf of your anti-abortion agenda.

              I’m constantly impressed by how reliably one finds coincidences between ignorance of developmental bio, climate change denialism, and rejection of evolution. It’s invariably a package of beliefs. But the more surprising thing is the people who reject so much of contemporary science invariably insist that they “love science”.

              It’s like my son, who says he loves vegetables but hates all examples of them excepting french fries. Clearly, I’m no more likely to get you to appreciate science than I’m likely to get my kid to eat broccolli, so, I’ll bid you a cheerful adieu.

            22. Lippyone says:

              Your science is out of date. Read the literature by Embryologists, you’ll be surprised what you missed.

            23. Saltydog says:

              Please, there’s only you and I reading this…. who are you trying to fool? You haven’t even a passing acquaintance with embryology, or with any other science…. it’s not hard to see that.

            24. Lippyone says:

              You talk like you know science, but you choose not to believe in it. According to Embryologists, the very earliest stage of the embryo fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life. 1. Metabolism 2. growth 3. reaction to stimuli and 4. reproduction. If you really know your science, in human biology fertilization constitutes a new life within the womb. Any disruption in any one of those criteria the embryo will die. Why is that so hard for you to understand. Maybe the Embryologists are right when they say we need biologists, family doctors, philosophers, news reporters and any other scientists with an agenda to stop lying to people about when life begins, and how it develops. You talk as though you believe all forms of evolution is true science. Its not.

            25. Saltydog says:

              Apparently, you are incapable of grasping this basic point: “biological life” (as you redundantly put it), is not a scientific concept–it names a phenomenon that is addressed by scientific concepts. No scientists sets out “criteria to establish biological life.” It’s your repetitive harping on that that reveals your scientific illiteracy. You seem to have a line on some alternative science, though, in which “scientists” say things like “we need biologists… to stop lying to people about when life begins.” As if real scientists are those that say that scientists are for some reason lying to people about the results of their science, whether it be climate science, evolution, or embryologists.

              I’m sorry, but that idea leaves no doubt that you despise science… it’s could hardly be stated any clearer. And it’s equally clear that your abortion position is based entirely on your indifference to scientific perspective and your unwillingness to engage critically with in the social policy issues.

              In a word, you have nothing coherent or relevant to offer to the abortion debate.

            26. Lippyone says:

              Do you agree that Biology is a branch of Natural Science concerned with the study of life and living organisms? Do you believe that Biological concepts are concepts that have to do with the study of life, such as the study of human cells.

            27. bill1024 says:

              Suggest you take G.B. Shaw’s advice re: porcine grappling

            28. Lippyone says:

              Cute.. Now answer the question. You have bloviated long enough.

            29. bill1024 says:

              What question is that?

            30. jimv1983 says:

              Biological life is absolutely a scientific concept.

            31. Saltydog says:

              “Biological life” is a redundant phrase. “Life” is the subject about which science generate concepts. But it is not one of those concepts.

            32. Lippyone says:

              You are really silly.

            33. Saltydog says:

              Wow, powerful thinker.

            34. kwkr says:

              Im reading salty dog, and enjoying! Learning too. Thanks love it when i learn from a post, it is possible! Lol

            35. Kristine Rowland says:

              “I’m no more likely to get you to appreciate science than I’m likely to get my kid to eat broccolli,”

              *Try melted cheese and bacon bits. OMG Get. In. My. Mouth.

              *clarification: On broccoli, not Lippy.

            36. jimv1983 says:

              Not caused by man? Are you serious?

              CO2 in the atmosphere traps heat. That is a FACT!

              CO2 levels in the atmosphere have increased faster since the industrial revolution(when we started dumping massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere) than at any other time in the last million years. From about a million years ago up until the industrial revolution CO2 levels in the atmosphere ranged between 200ppm and 300ppm and it took thousands of years to go from a low of about 200ppm to a high of about 280ppm. That is an increase of about 40% over thousands of years. Earlier this year or late last year it hit 400ppm. That is an increase of about 40% over about 200 years. That is all FACT.

              So the rate of increase of atmospheric CO2 just happens to start increasing at a drastic rate right around the time that humanity starts dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which traps heat and it isn’t caused by humanity? Do you realize how stupid you sound?

            37. Lippyone says:

              Well, first the CO2 in the atmosphere has been much higher in the history of the earth. Second, there is no accurate way to determine the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere before we get more modern models, which will still be a guess. Third, there are now about as many scientists that say they really don’t know what increased CO2 will do to the climate. It’s all done with computer models, not real observable science. There may be some correlation, there may not, so lets not go overboard and get stupid about how we have to try to control it.

            38. bill1024 says:

              First you say that the atmospheric CO2 levels have been much higher in the past, then you say there is no way to accurately measure those levels. Lets not go overboard and get stupid.

            39. Joan Diamond says:

              The nice thing about science is, it is true whether you believe in it or not. You can’t love science and then throw out science that has been proven true again and again, just because it doesn’t fit your view of how things should work. Saltydog has completely run your arguments to ground. your arguments are based on your beliefs, not science. Your beliefs are the things that are incorrect. But, you can’t let go of them or you would lose your grasp of yourself.

            40. Lippyone says:

              You need to learn that science is true, but scientists are not always truthful. Much of the science about global warming has been proven false, and in some cases scientists rigged their data because they had an agenda. Especially some college professor lied or made up results so they could keep their grants. New research shows there has been no global warming for 17 years, so they switched to climate change. There may be some proof for this, but no proof that it is caused by man. Maybe you should consider loosing your grasp of yourself.

            41. Arturo59 says:

              Chapter and verse, please.

            42. Lippyone says:

              Do your own homework, I already did mine.

            43. jimv1983 says:

              You love science but dislike evolution? What does that even mean? Evolution IS science.

            44. Barry52 says:

              lol Evolution is a money making machine to secularist “scientists” It’s also a lie.

            45. kwkr says:

              I believe youre thinking of religion as the money making machine! How does evolution make money??

            46. Barry52 says:

              The theory of evolution provided millions of dollars for the disciples of Darwin that teach it. Out in the mainstream people hardly even know of it.

            47. jimv1983 says:

              A money making machine? How is that?

              It’s not a lie at all. It’s supported by a ton of scientific evidence.

            48. Barry52 says:

              Not really. The “science” is not all in. Not ALL scientists teach it and that number is growing.

            49. jimv1983 says:

              Actually the science IS in you just choose not to accept it.

              You might be right that not 100% of scientists accept evolution but the VAST majority does and the “scientists” that don’t are those that try to fit what they call “science” into their backwards religious beliefs.

            50. Barry52 says:

              Evolution implodes upon itself. There has been NO observation of evolution in a lab setting, which used to be a virtue of science. But in the case of evolution that integral part is bypassed for some reason. Maybe for grants?

            51. jimv1983 says:

              Actually it has been seen in a lab with fruit flies.

            52. Martha Jane says:

              No where in any discourse on pro-choice, pro-life, and just generally birth control do I see the impact of pure numbers of humans upon the earth as a rational for limiting our explosive growth. In the early twentieth century (100 years ago) mankind had grown to 2 billion. Now we stand at 4 times and are looking at 32 billion in 100 years? So we argue the specific wording in a “sacred text” as the basis for our stance. Wow…religion strikes again. Logic and reason fly out the window and we instead rely on some ancient tribe’s visions (who knows what they were on) that have been proclaimed the word of “god”. Maybe we deserve to join the growing numbers of extinct species after all.
              And, back to the origins of this thread, I applaud the author’s adherence to the more loving and reasonable text of the New Testament.

            53. Lippyone says:

              If you are a biologist you know that human sperm and egg cells are not trying to reproduce themselves, they can’t. They both die unless the egg is fertilized by the sperm. Your creation of life through-evolution is extremely shaky and unprovable. As a “practioner of science” you should know better than to introduce evolution as truth. I personally think it takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in a creator. Scientists have proven that a human life begins at fertilization. When society wants to say when life begins is irrelevant. Scientists say it begins at fertilization and doesn’t stop until the human dies. Someone interfering from fertilization to death is murder.

            54. Saltydog says:

              It’s not *if* I’m a biologist. Anyway, it is challenging introducing someone to science from the ground level… sperm and egg cells *are* trying to reproduce themselves, of course. They do that by pairing in fertilization, development of an embryo and thence an adult, who produces…(tada!) a sperm or an egg cell again.

              Anyway, as you reject the scientific approach to the start of life–evolution–there’s no point in your claiming validation by science. Science isn’t Lippyone talking to himself. It is scientists discussing and peer reviewing each other’s concepts and research, and going where the results lead.

              In any case, re science has “proven that a human life begins at fertilization”–this is scientifically meaningless on several levels as I’ve pointed out: i) ‘life’ is not an explanatory concept in biological science, other than in evolutionary theory of life origins, which theory you reject; ii) at all stages of ontogeny the involved cells are “alive”; the whole process is the reproduction of DNA, and there’s no scientific meaning to defining a moment in which life starts.

              Really, it is absurd. You seem to think there are serious peer-reviewed scientific articles with titles like, “When does human life begin? Current Research”. There just aren’t. The only thing in science remotely related to such topics are articles with titles like, “How did life (first) begin”, i.e., articles about the pre-conditions of evolution.

              Your science-for-anti-abortion policy is a fantasy, pure and simple.

            55. Lippyone says:

              I’ll get back to the biology of life later. You say evolution is the start of life. Explain how you think that happened. By chance out of some primeval sea? Astrophysicists tell us that there was absolutely no life forms on earth in the beginning. So, what did life evolve from?

            56. jimv1983 says:

              Eggs and sperm don’t reproduce. They don’t undergo cellular mitosis. If they did reproduce then one sperm cell could create more sperm cells and one egg cell could create more egg cells. An egg and a sperm fuse together at which point both cease to exist and a human life exists. That human life is capable of reproducing. First at the cellular level via cell division (mitosis) then by creating full individuals of the species after reaching sexual maturity.

            57. Saltydog says:

              Um, yes, I discussed this already and your points don’t lead anywhere. [Sperm and egg cells reproduce their DNA by achieving successful fertilization, producing thence a zygote, thence one or more fetuses, thence one or more persons (more in the case of twins), who produce sperm and egg cells reproducing some part of the DNA in the original sperm and egg cells. They don’t undergo mitosis. So?]

              Your on-and-off notions of “human life” are vaguely reminiscent pre-scientific notions of life out of nothing. Fascinating how many people in the US of A, one of the more scientifically advanced countries of the world, still are possessed of a pre-Copernican, flat earth world view.

            58. jimv1983 says:

              What the hell are you talking about? A sperm and egg fusing to make a human life that ends up making its own sperm or egg is not the same as the original sperm or egg reproducing itself.

            59. Saltydog says:

              Good, you’re almost understanding the point…yes, sperm and egg reproduction takes a different form (fusion and ontogenesis) than reproduction by mitosis. And so?…. some biological systems, esp. humans, use both processes at different points to ensure continuation of the species.

              The point you don’t appear to get is that both processes of reproduction are life processes (you doubt that? then say in what non-biological systems do you find either form of reproduction?). I guess that your whole silly attempt to frame a biological justification for your anti-abortion position rests on not understanding this point.

              Really, the only coherent position for you is to say that you want to ban all abortions for one or another social benefit. Science just has nothing especially pertinent to offer your argument, twist and bully it as you might.

            60. jimv1983 says:

              Sperm and eggs don’t reproduce. At fertilization they both cease to exist and a human life is created.

              Plus, I never said that my reason for being against abortion is strictly based on science.

              The science part is used to determine what a human life is. Once an egg and sperm fuse a human life is created.

              After that or does come down to personal morals and opinions.

              Many years ago when I was thinking about my position on the whole abortion situation I asked myself one simple question.

              When is it OK to end a human life?

              I only came up with 3 reasonable answers:

              1. If the life belongs to the one that is going to end it. I.E Suicide

              2. If the life that is being ended is possing a threat to others. I.E self defense

              3. If the life that is being ended is guilty of a serious crime such as murder. I.E the death penalty. And even this one is a bit of a gray area since, although I think it is a deserving punishment, people are sometimes wrongly convinced.

              Outside of those three reasons I don’t think it’s ever OK to end a human life.

              Since abortion doesn’t full under any of those 3 reasons I’m against it.

              It is a human life unique from the mothers (different and unique DNA, possibly different blood type and 50% that it is a different sex) so reason one doesn’t apply.

              The unborn life isn’t trying to hurt anyone and hasn’t hurt anyone on the past so reasons 2 and 3 don’t apply either.

            61. Saltydog says:

              Well, your question, “when is it OK to end a human life” inspires you to get off the bogus biology and say some actually sensible things. It’s a bit refreshing.

              Interesting that immediately, there’s room for reasoned discussion and debate, without empty metaphysical posturing.

              Thus, your criterion (1) really frames the question pretty well. It suggests that the morality of abortion in your view depends on one’s answer to the question, who does the life of the fetus belong to?

              I’d say it belongs to the women whose body it is part of. You’d presumably say it belongs to the fetus, or perhaps to the state.

              There’s a lot of potential disagreement between those two positions, but for the first time in our back and forth here does the discussion move from the absurd metaphysical to the level of potentially rational discourse.

            62. jimv1983 says:

              The question “When is it OK to end a human life” is based on the definition of what human life is. That part is science. No question about it. It isn’t at all “bogus biology” or “metaphysical posturing”.

              You can’t even begin to discuss when it’s ok to end a human life until you have a definition of what “human life” is. Science provides that definition. Once we have that we can discuss when it’s ok to end a human life.

              “I’d say it belongs to the women whose body it is part of. You’d presumably say it belongs to the fetus, or perhaps to the state.”

              The problem with that argument is that the fetus isn’t PART OF the mother’s body. The fetus is INSIDE OF the mother’s body. INSIDE OF isn’t the same thing as PART OF. If you get INSIDE your car are you PART OF your car? If you are INSIDE a building are you PART OF that building? Of course NOT. Saying such a thing would be ridiculous. Why is a fetus inside a mother be any different? Of course the fetus’ life belongs to itself. As far as belonging to the state why would you even think I would have such an opinion?

              What you are suggesting is like trying to have a policy discussion about climate change when people can’t even agree that it’s actually an issue caused by humanity.

            63. Saltydog says:

              “What you are suggesting is like trying to have a policy discussion about climate change when people can’t even agree that it’s actually an issue caused by humanity.” This is a particularly telling example. “People” can’t even agree on climate change, but there is not serious scientific doubt about it. Likewise, “people” can be fuddled about “life” and the status of the fetus, but scientists aren’t.

              As for your new round of metaphysical argument, with respect, it is precisely the same vacuous argument by stipulation as you use to concerning “the beginning of life”. Why, you ask, is a fetus’s relation to the mother any different from the relation of a car’s passenger to the car? Well, the passenger doesn’t come into existence inside the car, and doesn’t owe his/her existence to the functioning of the vehicle, whereas a fetus does. Nor does the fetus have an independent existence before and after being in the mother, but a passenger has such existence before and after entering the vehicle.

              These differences are rather the kind of things that we distinguish in English by the contrast between things being “inside” as opposed to “part of” something else. Note: when the central point of your analogy muddles the particular similarities that you are trying to assert, your argument can’t seem terribly convincing to someone who isn’t already convinced.

              But this is really tiresome. Even assuming you’re ever able to put together a sound argument for your abortion position, whatever it is, your arguments aren’t actually especially relevant to the abortion debate. After all, the legal/social question is when can someone’s body be held to have a duty to provide sustenance to another person’s body? It can’t be that we have a duty just because a person’s life depends on our providing sustenance or bodily services. I can’t be forced to give blood, even if someone else’s life depends on my doing so. I can’t be forced to give organs to others just because their life might depend on my doing so.

              The question is, by what principle can women be required to devote their body, possibly risking their lives, for the sake of a fetus. Whether the fetus is described as “inside her” or “part of her” doesn’t make the principle clearer.

              What with your faulty and irrelevant arguments about the start of life etc. you are not even close to making a case for restrictive abortion laws.

            64. jimv1983 says:

              Scientists very much do have a clear definition of life.

              The question is, by what principle can one human life have the right to choose what happens to another human life?

              Being forced to give others your blood or organs is very different than choosing whether an innocent human life has their life terminated.

            65. Saltydog says:

              Re “Being forced to give others your blood or organs is very different than choosing whether an innocent human life has their life terminated.” Sigh. Come on, try thinking for a bit, it won’t hurt, or cause God to strike you dead….

              You apparently want to justify the state’s saying that women may be forced to bear a fetus to birth because otherwise a life ends. You also don’t what to allow the state to say that women and men may be forced to provide organs to another, though otherwise a life ends.

              And then you say the two cases are very different…. OK, and so, what more is needed to round out your post? Hint: it’s a phrase that rhymes word for word with “a season for your range relief”.

            66. Barry52 says:

              My God you’re stupid. Abiogenesis.

            67. Saltydog says:

              Are you trying to make some point of general interest? (Abiogenesis is the supposed start of life some 4 billion years ago. If you think that is relevant to the stupid notion that life begins at fertilization, you might need to explain why.)

              Or possibly the extent of your knowledge allows nothing more than name calling.

            68. Barry52 says:

              Abiogenesis is the STUDY of life origins. Can’t have evolution without the beginning of life. There are several hypothesis on the beginning of life, none of them validated. And your half witted response that my statement that life begins at fertilization only shows your ignorance. Wager me this. You take a female egg, from a human woman, and do whatever your “scientific” mind comes up with to keep that egg, or eggs, viable. See how long it takes for that egg to become a living, human baby without fertilization from the human male sperm then get back to me. As I said, my God, you are stupid.

            69. Saltydog says:

              1) Re “Abiogenesis is the STUDY of life origins.” Strange that you should insist on a point that any English speaker would understand to be false. If English isn’t your first language, why wouldn’t you look up the word before you stood up on your hind legs and told an English speaker what it *really* means??

              2) Re “Can’t have evolution without the beginning of life.” Um, OK. So?

              3) Re “And your half witted response that my statement that human life begins at fertilization is stupid only shows your ignorance.” It shows that I don’t use your definition of “life”, which definition implies that sperm and eggs are not biological systems. This just means I prefer the scientific perspective not the Barry52 perspective, which is motivated by wanting to say that abortion is murder.

              4) re “Wager me this. You take a female egg, from a human woman, and do whatever your “scientific” mind comes up with to keep that egg…” As an aside, I guess as an anti- you don’t think this woman need have any say in whether I get to take her eggs or not. Wager you what?

              5) Re “See how long it takes for … egg to become a living, human baby without fertilization from the human male sperm then get back to me.” Experiments like this are exactly not the kind of things science does. You have a very strange notion of what science is.

              6) Re “As I said, my God, you are stupid.” Oh, your God is stupid? Or, perhaps you meant that I am, by God. God knows.

            70. Kristine Rowland says:

              You have absolutely no love whatsoever for someone who thinks differently than you, and yet you dare to call yourself a Christian, a follower of Christ, who preached love and acceptance. How dare you.

            71. Barry52 says:

              Oh, Mr. Nye, you say that the start of life is evolution? No, that’s abiogenesis, Evolution follows. Supposedly. As I have said,. My God, you’re stupid.

            72. jimv1983 says:

              When people say “when does life begin” they are usually referring to a human life. An egg alone is not a human life. A sperm alone is not a human life. When the two fuse together a human life is created.

              I think more laws should be based on science.

            73. Saltydog says:

              Re “When the two fuse together a human life is created… more laws should be based on science.” The first part of your statement is an opinion about how we should use the phrase “human life”. It raises one issue: with respect, why exactly should anyone care what your rather arbitrary opinion is about the use of the phrase “human life”?

              Do you suppose your opinion is somehow given weight by science? It isn’t.

            74. jimv1983 says:

              It isn’t an opinion. It’s fact. Being human is a matter of genetics. There are characteristics that all living things have. If something meets those characteristics it is alive. If that living thing is genetically human then it is a human life.

            75. Saltydog says:

              “There are characteristics that all living things have. If something meets those characteristics it is alive.” So, you should observe that this little argument has the defect that it is vacuous.

              Here’s another formally identical argument that will help you see the, uh, problem:

              “There are characteristics that all things have. If something meets those characteristics it is a thing.”

              This is what make so many anti-abortion agitators sound so dumb: they absolutely insist on making their case based on a hash of biology factoids and sophomoric metaphysics. Why don’t you just make the case for you position without all the biological and logical BS? There are much better arguments for being anti-abortion and they don’t refer to science.

              They’re not compelling to me, but then they aren’t dumb.

            76. jimv1983 says:

              “Life” is not an intrinsically ambiguous term. That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.

            77. Saltydog says:

              Well, I appreciate what people are thinking about when they say “when does life begin”. The point is, there is no scientific answer other than to point to the origin of life and its subsequent evolution. Life does not ‘begin’ at any point between one human generation and the next one. Claims that “science” has any interest or result that suggests otherwise is silly, confusing a social judgement with a scientific finding.

            78. jimv1983 says:

              It happens when a genetically unique human life comes into existence.

            79. bayhuntr says:

              When a cell splits, new life is created. Where you had one living cell, now you have two. After a new sperm is created, itself, new life and it fertilizes an egg and if it attaches to the uterine wall and the host body doesn’t reject it, it has the potential of one day producing more sperm to start the process all over again.

              My personal opinion is, YOUR only argument to be pro-birth is a social one. By your example, every time a man masterbates onto the bathroom floore… the exact same statement is true: Socially YOU can pick the stage you choose, but the death is to a created life. So every time you allow an egg or a sperm to die, you are guilty of killing a human being, at least by your logic. But you have flawed logic, brought on by mind damaging indoctrination.

              See, if you father had visited the bathroom instead of your mother, when the sperm that was carrying exactly half of what you are today, you would not be here today and that is the EXACT same result if your mother had miscarried anywhere in the process. That is a fact, and proves your claim that one of you has a social reason and one of you don’t, is complete poppycock.

            80. Lippyone says:

              You should not try to explain things you know nothing about. I’ll try to give you a Biology 101 lesson. First: If the cell is a sex cell (sperm or egg) it is not complete without fertilization taking place. Each sperm and egg only has half the chromosomes of the fertilized egg. No new sperm or egg is created. When a sperm or egg die you are not killing a human being. The egg has to be fertilized first. If not no human was created. A mother cannot miscarry a sperm or an egg, only a fertilized egg, As for your crude comment ii is expected from someone ignorant and uneducated, so I forgive you.

            81. bayhuntr says:

              Your
              agenda is showing… A sex cell is a complete sex cell, I never said is was
              anything else. This suggest you have a reading comprehension issue. A sperm
              and egg are gametes, they join together to make a zygote. Let’s give YOU a
              lesson since you appear to not know these technical terms, since I have used
              them earlier in this thread: A gamete has only half the
              chromosomes, that’s why you need two to make a zygote. I’m not
              worried about my knowledge, you are the one with the damaged reason center, your
              arrogance is an attempt to hide it.

              I never said
              a woman miscarries a sperm or an unfertilized egg, again, your reason
              is damaged, so you look for excuses. I said if your father delivered
              your sperm to the bathroom floor and not your mother, the night you
              were conceived, it would be the same result as a miscarriage …if the sperm WAS
              delivered to the egg; you would not be here. If you think biology and natural
              human activity, like masturbation is crude, go sell clothes at Macy’s and stop
              pretending to understand science.

              See, you are
              here, it is quite possible you have a sibling who is not here, because
              you father failed to deliver their sperm to your mother. Since you
              only imagine embryos as people, you never think about your sisters and brothers
              that are missing for not reaching an egg. Much less all those brother and
              sisters that miscarried, 15% to 25% of “Human beings” miscarriage.
              Interesting how there are no tears shed for them.

            82. bayhuntr says:

              A human fertilized egg is human, it’s not a human being. It has the potential of becoming a human being, just like any sperm or eggs does. A zygote is not a human being, but I understand the need for some, especially pro-birther types to claim it is. Again, they are welcome to their personal opinions, but it doesn’t change the facts.

            83. jimv1983 says:

              An egg and a sperm on their own are not human life since neither one has a full set of human DNA. When they fuse a human life is created.

            84. bayhuntr says:

              A human sperm and egg are life, they are human gamete cells. They are not worm cells, they are not bird cells, they are human cells. They are organic living, as in alive, cells and they are human living cells. They have the potential to be human beings one day.

              If you are trying to suggest life and living are different things, more power to you. You can have any personal opinion you want, but forcing it on others is one of those things that cause civil wars.

            85. jimv1983 says:

              Neither of them on their own are a human life. To be human you must have a full set of human DNA. A human has 46 chromosomes. A sperm and an egg on their own only have 23 chromosomes.

            86. bayhuntr says:

              If these human cells, with their 23 human chromosomes are not human, what are they?

              BTW, when someone says “gamete ” cell, it is understood to have only half the chromosomes. It wouldn’t be a gamete if it had all the chromosomes.

            87. jimv1983 says:

              It’s a human gamete cell. It isn’t a complete human. If left in a habitable environment and egg or sperm wouldn’t do anything. They wouldn’t grow. They wouldn’t duplicate. They would just sit there with half of the needed parts to make an actual human life. It is only when they fuse together that they become a human life.

            88. bayhuntr says:

              You keep repeating stuff that’s already common knowledge, and then in midsentence change the subject back to saying it’s not human life. A sperm cell is human life. Yes it has a specific chore to do, and that’s how it’s designed. Without it you wouldn’t create a human being. And if the zygote doesn’t attached to the uterus wall, it will die. At that point it has a full set of chromosomes, that could be functional or not functional.
              The problem is, if you want to draw this perfect little point, that when the sperm touches the egg, a little magical fairy sparks fly out . Poof a person. It’s no more person the moment after the sperm touches the egg and it was a moment before. The only thing that increases is the potential for a child. But that potential, started long before that sperm even found its way to the egg and will continue to grow until a child is born.
              There is a big urgency to try to put this imaginary random wall at that point before and after conception, because if you don’t, your argument Falls part. If you can’t convince people that a sperm and egg is nothing, but an egg with a sperm penetrating the membrane, is a baby, then you’re stuck recognizing that a condom is no different than abortion; they both prevent the birth of a child. And that idea? It won’t sell right now. But if you get your way and take away the rights of women to control their own bodies, that will be the next step.

            89. jimv1983 says:

              I keep repeating stuff because you don’t seem to understand a simple concept.

              Sperm != human life
              Egg != human life
              Egg + sperm = human life

              Note: != is used to denote “not equal” in case you’re unfamiliar with it.

              What you are saying is like saying 2 = 4 because 2 + 2 = 4.

              “The problem is, if you want to draw this perfect little point, that when the sperm touches the egg, a little magical fairy sparks fly out .”

              I wouldn’t call it magic. It’s biology. Also, to be more accurate it’s when the sperm enters the egg and the genetic material in the nuclei of the two cells combine. At that point there is a living organism with 46 human chromosomes. Once that happens a habitable environment will result in a fully formed child ~9 months later. You can’t say that about a sperm or egg on their own. Left alone they will become nothing.

            90. bayhuntr says:

              You are repeating stuff because you have a weak argument, not that I don’t’ understand. Let me paraphrase what I hear you saying… A sperm is not alive, or you’re saying it’s alive, but it’s not human. Since I have clearly state it is not a human being, but just human life, I cannot take your claim any other way. If a biologist looks at a sperm, they could correctly label it a human sperm, as opposed to a cow sperm. So what are you claiming, it’s not alive or it’s not human? A sperm is human life, you might disagree with that, it’s a free country, as least today.

              No, I’m not saying 2 = 4, I’m sayin “2” is a number and so is “4.”

              It’s all biology, not just the fertilization. The fairy sparkles, is the idea that some have, that at that point it becomes a baby, biologically, it is not a baby, not even close. It is a zygote. It is a religious opinion, that some want to force on others.

              Of course there has to be fertilization, there also has to be everything that leads up to fertilization, the zygote also has to attach to the uterine wall, and a lot of other things that have to be just right for a live healthy birth. And after that, there are things that need to happen to have a healthy life. None of those things are in disagreement (Except pro-birthers only care if they are born). With the pro-birth fanatics, it’s the ignorant claim that a zygote is a baby.

              I’m mostly familiar with this ≠ as meaning not equal to, perhaps != is used as a shortcut to using ALT Codes.

            91. jimv1983 says:

              I’m repeating myself because you don’t seem to get it.

              A sperm is alive and it’s human in the sense that it isn’t a sperm of some other species but that doesn’t mean it’s fully human. It’s half of a human just like “2” is half of “4”.

              Of course a zygote isn’t a baby because it’s a zygote. Zygote, embryo, fetus, newborn, child, adolescent and adult are all stages of human development. Sperm and egg are not. I think all stages of human life are equal.

            92. bayhuntr says:

              What don’t I get? What I’m hearing you say is you agree with me, but you’re playing semantics to try to hide that fact. We’ve already both said the sperm is only half the chromosomes, no need to repeat that is there? I’ve already said that a sperm is not a human being, zygote is , no need to repeat that we both agree on that. The sperm is human it’s not half human it’s half a human-beings genetic material, but it’s 100% human. If you pull one chromosome from a cell that is from a human cell it’s a human chromosomes it’s not part of human chromosomes. The sperm is a 100% human it’s not part human. If you pull one chromosome from a cell that is from a human cell, it’s a human chromosome.

              Now, when it comes to claiming that the only important part of human development is after fertilization, is nothing but your personal opinion. And I disagree with you. There are other religions that disagree with you, but for a different reason than I do. What I haven’t heard from you, is a reason why exclamation of why you insist that that point is where it becomes important. As I said many times, a failure anything before that prevents the birth of the baby.

            93. jimv1983 says:

              I was trying to distinguish the difference between a sperm and an egg on their own and what is created once they join. And there certainly is a difference. If you want to use the term “human being” (not a very scientific term but that’s OK) to distinguish between a sperm and egg on their own and what is created after they join then fine, I’ll go with that.

              So I’ll say it this way: a sperm and an egg alone are not a “human being” and will never be more than just a sperm and an egg. Once they join a “human being” is created that has everything out needs to develop into a fully formed baby ready for birth.

              Sure a sperm and an egg are important in the entire process. Without them a “human being” would never be created. That is when it becomes important because that is the point that it has all the genetic information it needs to form into a fully formed baby and, given a habitable environment, can develop into a fully formed baby ready to be born.

              Sure, a failure before birth would prevent the birth of a fully formed baby. What’s your point? After fertilization a failure to maintain a habitable environment would end the life of any “human being” regardless of the stage of development. That includes the failure of an embryo to implant in a uterus and the failure of you or me to continue getting oxygen. It seems to me that you think there is some difference between those situations. There isn’t. Just “human beings” at different stages of development.

              Yet, for some reason I just don’t understand, some people seem to put some stage of the life of a “human being”(the ones that occur after birth) higher than other stages(the ones that occur before birth). Doesn’t sound like equally to me.

            94. bayhuntr says:

              I think it strange calling a zygote a human being, but as Lippyone pointed out earlier in this thread, I was incorrect stating that it isn’t, technically ( what science says) that is the definition of the start of a human being.

              We’re pretty much in agreement, or at least an understanding. Your last paragraph, not understanding how people can assign value depending on different stages of human development, that’s where personal opinion comes in. I personally put more value on the mind than the body. I only see potential in an embryo, I don’t see a person. If I have the choice of carrying a freezer out of a burning building with 100 frozen embryos in it, or saving one five-year-old child with a broken leg, it’s going to be the child with a broken leg. I do not believe they are even close, and if somebody came out of that burning building with the freezer and let a mothers five-year-old child burn alive, I wouldn’t find that mother guilty for any violence she would show toward that person in her moment of grief.

              There’s a reason we have the word embryo, it’s because it describe something unique, calling it a person is just politics. If people feel otherwise, they are perfectly free to live their own life accordingly. Unfortunately too many people want to force their personal opinion on others.

            95. jimv1983 says:

              We are in agreement that assigning value depending on different stages of development is based on opinion. I absolutely consider an embryo a person.

              In my opinion making the value of a human being dependent on level of development of the mind is a slippery slope. If you are going to apply that thinking to a human being at a stage of development prior to birth then wouldn’t it be logical to apply the same reasoning after birth? If you are going to use the argument that a born baby’s life is more valuable than a fetus’ because the born baby is more mentally development then by that logic you would also have to think that adult human being’s life has more value than the newborn baby because the adult happens to have a more developed mind.

              In your situation of choosing between the frozen embryos and the 5 year old child I would probably make the same decision as you because the 5 year old could fell pain and had others who have a strong emotional attachment to them. However, that doesn’t mean I think the embryos are any less deserving of life and, if possible, I would go back for the embryos as well. It’s like that old question that asks if you were with your spouse, a parent and a child and you could only save one then who would you choose? Different people would choose differently based on person opinion. If I could only save one in your burning building situation then of course it would be the 5 year old but like the question between spouse, parent and child, like most people, I would save as many as possible. For me that same thinking applies to human beings at all stages of development.

              “There’s a reason we have the word embryo, it’s because it describe something unique”

              You could really say the same about any word that describes a stage of development of a human being. You could just as easily replace the word “embryo” with “newborn”, “child”, “teen” or “adult” in your sentence and it would really have the same meaning.

              I agree that forcing opinions on others is bad which is exactly why I’m against abortion. An embryo is a human being that is having another human beings personal opinions forced upon it. That is something I just can’t support.

            96. bayhuntr says:

              “I agree that forcing opinions on others is bad which is exactly why I’m against abortion.” This makes you at minimum a pro-birth person. I’m guessing you are willing to force your opinion that an embryo is a person of others. You have no choice, in your mind the embryo is a person that can’t speak for itself? Of course it can’t speak for itself because it’s not a person.

              We have come full circle, you have given no reason that suggest a Zygote is a person, it’s just a random point that, without something like faith as a guide, is not rational. If we allow you to force your opinion, based on irrationality or faith, why would we not have to allow others the same rights? People believe using a condom is killing a person. Who gets to decide, who gets to force their opinions? I’m not forcing anything on anyone and my views are not abstract.

              You say you would, like me, save the girl not the frozen embryos, you then explain why “because the 5 year old could fell pain and had others who have a strong emotional attachment to them. However, that doesn’t mean I think the embryos are any less deserving of life” Yes, that is exactly what you are saying, the 5 year old is more deserving of life because she could feel pain and has others who have a strong emotional attachment to them; and she of them. All the things that make us who we are, not who we might be.

              If there were a 100 children locked in an auditorium and I had a choose to go save the 5 year old girl, or go unlock the door and save the 100, I would save the hundred. You see much more worth in a 5 year old girl that you would let 100 embryos die. A hundred to one… that is irrational. Either they are people or they are not. What makes the little girl a person, is the fact people can get to know her and she can suffer. I would not feel empathy for the embryos, they don’t feel anything; they are a bundle of frozen cells. Is it possible you can’t feel empathy for something that cannot suffer? I think you would use the same judgment for how much risk you would put yourself in, to go back into a burning building to save frozen embryos; we can only take your word for that. I personally, after you died in the fire, would vote to give you a Darwin Award.

              This ideology is damaging to society, the pro-birth people, don’t compromise, they end up voting only for those who play lip service to their pro-birth views. They make themselves the perfect target of bad people. There is a reason the party of god is also the party of greed. That is why I refer to them as pro-birth, the policies that they end up supporting to get that lip service, hurt families, especially the poor and children, the people that need help the most.

            97. jimv1983 says:

              I’d only save the 5 year old girl if I had to choose over or the other. It would be no different than choosing between someone I’m close to vs a total stranger. I’d choose the person I knew first.

              Unlike you I don’t base personhood on whether or not a human being can speak for themselves. A week old no born can’t speak for itself. Are you saying a week old newborn isn’t a person? I certainly hope not.

              Referring to me as “pro-birth” gives me the impression that you think I only care about a human being but not after. That is a common misconception that pro-abortion people have about anti-abortion people that might be true for some but certainly not everyone, including me.

              It’s also surprising to me that you bring up the “party of god” which, as I’m pretty sure I’ve already mentioned, I’m not a part of since I’m an atheist.

              What I think is really damaging to society is basing the value of one human life (or human being if you prefer that term) based on their level of physical and/or mental development.

            98. bayhuntr says:

              “It would be no different than choosing between someone I’m close to vs a total stranger” No, you clearly stated your reason and I quote “because the 5 year old could fell pain and had others who have a strong emotional attachment to them” I believe pro-birth people are not supposed to answer this question to start with, because there is no reason your way out of it. They Are either people are they are not, a 100 strangers or one stranger; you chose to save the person and now you’re to find a different way to say it.

              “I don’t base personhood on whether or not a human being can speak for themselves” You haven’t clearly said what you base it on, other than a random point in the reproduction process. Yes, of course a newborn can speak for itself, it has vocal cords and breath and pain. Have you never seen a baby get pinched? A frozen embryo has none of those things; it can’t speak because it’s not a person, it’s a lump of frozen cells. Ever seen a baby frozen solid?

              Didn’t say you were or were not religious, are you protesting too much? The function that creates the party of god and greed, works with anyone who puts their pet causes, based on only personal opinion. above all else; pro-birth and religious extremist. I explained why these types of people end up not caring about people after they are born, you have said nothing to contradict that.

              Please explain how my view of this subject and not agreeing with your personal opinion is damaging society? The totalitarianism demanded by religious and pro-birth extremist damages societies. I’m not forcing anything on anyone. A frozen embryo isn’t a person, it has no mind, so your last statement, is not valid.

              This is what I think, you thought if you approached the subject, pretending to be a reasonable science oriented person you could win the debate, but that isn’t why people lose this debate in the first place, it’s because they are wrong. It doesn’t take long until they start falling back on the same old pro-birth talking points like “Personhood” or “Pro-abortionist” People are pro-choice not pro abortion, most anti abortionists ARE only pro-birth, especially in their political leanings, I suggested you were too, but I didn’t say I knew for sure. Unfortunately, religious and pro-birth extremist (usually, but not always) are one in the same, they lie as part of their extremism. “The end justifies the means”. After a while, they start to believe their own lies.

              When I hear those talking points, it’s time to bow out. Take care.

            99. jimv1983 says:

              “You haven’t clearly said what you base it on, other than a random point in the reproduction process.”

              It isn’t at all a random point in the reproduction process. It’s the moment when sperm and egg cease to exist and a genetically unique human being exists. I’d actually say it’s the point important point in the reproduction process. Certainly not the ONLY important point but the MOST important point.

              “A frozen embryo has none of those things; it can’t speak because it’s not a person…”

              We’ve already determined that the term “person” isn’t really a scientific term that means different things to different people. I absolutely consider that frozen fetus a person. As soon as sperm and egg fuse I consider it a person.

              “..you thought if you approached the subject, pretending to be a reasonable science oriented person you could win the debate, but that isn’t why people lose this debate in the first place, it’s because they are wrong.”

              I wasn’t pretending to be a science oriented person. Like I said before my stance on abortion is based on personal opinions applied to the biology of reproduction of a human life(or human being if you prefer). The science I stated is not wrong and opinions are opinions.

              I never liked the term “pro-choice” because it gives the “choice” to one human being to deny choice to another human being.

            100. bayhuntr says:

              We’re to the point that you’re demanding that your opinion, be more than it is, that’s the kind of culture that leads to violence and civil wars. Of course it is a random point, it’s a random point that you have been indoctrinated to believe is special for no other reason then to make it a club. The problem is, the club is more important then what you claim to stand for, that’s why pro-birth describes you so well. The psychology reminds me of large city gangs, they imagine a difference between them so they can feel superior, when really there’s nothing there. The pro birth community, do little, if anything, to improve society, in fact we can easily point to where they support policies that increase more abortions, and that’s on top of the policies that harm children. It’s not about saving lives, it’s about your club, just like the gangs in LA. Your club needs that defining point where you can be outraged and justify your feelings of superiority. You’ve made that random point fertilization. And then your club only finds it important to call them babies, when it’s convenient. You displayed that in your first explanation of why you would save the child and not the frozen embryos, and tried to walk it back later.

              If 15% to 20% of newborns were dying, two out of ten, people would be outraged and demand we find out why and prevent it. That’s how many “babies” your definition, die after fertilization, 15% to 20%. Forgot about those “babies” didn’t you? Those babies must not be important, who cares if all those babies die, right? You ignoring that, is that not the same as killing all those babies? How come some frozen lumps of cells are babies that demand your attention, but all those other babies deserve none of your attention? I’ll tell you why, because is not about babies it’s about your club, it’s about demanding people except your personal opinion as fact. Like the lady said, you only care about babies if there embryos in other peoples bodies. You only care about babies, if it makes you and your club feel superior.

            101. Lippyone says:

              You really have no clue as to what scientists have proven. A fertilized egg from a human is a human being. You cannot separate human from human being. (that is just semantics)A zygote is a fertilized egg. If a human egg, then the zygote is human. There is nothing potential about a fertilized egg. It is human from the second it is fertilized . These are the facts, Jack. Time to stop listening to ideology that have an agenda, and start reading some science research.

            102. bayhuntr says:

              It’s all about semantics and “Feelings” A single cell embryo is technically a human being, I misspoke, but it is not what the average person thinks of as a human being; they think of a person. It is not a person. For the record, a zygote is not a fertilized egg, it isn’t an egg once it is fertilized. The idea that you don’t have an agenda… BS. Claiming you don’t is part of that agenda.

            103. jimv1983 says:

              Exactly. Glad to see someone else gets it.

            104. bayhuntr says:

              No, his logic did not lead to millions, your lack of science is showing. What he is saying is very simple, at the point of fertilization, you were saying there is a person, there could be more than one person. But they could split, just like all cells split and independently produced the possibility for two individuals to develop.
              We talk about potential, because 15% to 20% of fertilized eggs, miscarriage.
              But as I always say, you are allowed to your personal, this is America!

            105. Lippyone says:

              What logic did not lead to millions? There cannot be more than one person at fertilization unless two eggs are fertilized. The single egg when fertilized is a human. It can split after a couple days to become twins if a single egg splits. (identical twins) If fraternal twins occur when two separate sperm fertilize two separate eggs. There is no potential to development, at fertilization the zygote is human. As long as it lives it will develop into a baby at birth (it was already human). If it is miscarried it dies. After fertilization there are only two states, alive or dead and nothing in between, there is no potential. This has nothing about my personal because it’s America. It’s true because it has been proven by scientists.

            106. bill1024 says:

              That’s only your opinion. There are many other opinions. It has not been proven by scientists.

            107. Barry52 says:

              Pure ignorance on your party. Look at nature. A hen can lay egg after egg and not hatch a chick. Bring in the old rooster and fertilize those eggs and you have baby chicks. Sometimes science is in your own backyard.

            108. Saltydog says:

              So, you don’t apparently know what a “zygote” is. Hint: if u had informed yourself that an unfertilized egg is *not* a zygote, u would not have posted your irrelevant remarks about chicken eggs. “Pure ignorance”?? U sure win that prize.

              It is incredible to hear so much smuggness wrapped around complete ignorance of basic bio. Such is the fool.

            109. Barry52 says:

              No, all I was saying is an egg can lie in the female body forever and without it being fertilized by the male sperm it will never become a baby. THUSLY, proving that viable life begins at conception. You are educated beyond your intelligence. And stupid too.

            110. Saltydog says:

              Do you really mean to give yourself the Nobel prize for noticing that an unfertilized chicken egg can’t become a chick? Do you really think you are introducing new or relevant knowledge into the discussion?

              More importantly, do you really find it convincing to argue that “viable life begins at conception” because ‘it doesn’t begin before then’? Logic interest you much?

              I suppose you are determined to say that “life begins at conception”, so that you can further say that ‘women should not be allowed to have an abortion because life begins at conception’ (another unargued non sequitur).

              But your only clear point seems to be that you want to outlaw abortion. Nothing else your saying even rates as coherent argument, never mind a scientifically motivated one.

            111. Barry52 says:

              Of course I want to outlaw abortion. When it comes between a mothers life or the baby’s abortion, I leave that to her and God. You on the other hand want to be her god and tell her nothing is wrong with abortion at any stage. That is the cold hardheartedness of evolution that proves it is a lie. The chicken and the egg? So tell me Mr. Wizard, does the HUMAN female egg have life without fertilization? I know I am not introducing anything new, it’s been that way since God created Adam and Eve. An unfertilized egg does not have life, BUT a fertilized egg is when LIFE begins. I can’t help it if you can’t grasp that.

            112. bayhuntr says:

              Your arrogance is disgusting. You suggest women are too stupid to know what they are doing, so you want to force your ideas, your indoctrination, as you see it, on her. Fool, just like an human egg, you have life until you don’t. An egg is life, so is a sperm. They have just as much potential to be a human being as a zygote does, and without them, you would never have a zygote, without a zygote you wouldn’t have a fetus, without a fetus, you wouldn’t have baby. You lie and call every stage a baby, why? because you are a liar. You think if you do, you can convince yourself your silly ideas are true, there is nothing moral in any of your words; just arrogance. And hey, if you can pretend to be god-like by claiming to speak for one, cool, right? That I think, is what make people like you so bad, telling a woman who is far superior to you in mind and soul, that you know a god, who confide in you, you, a low quality person, who ignores the mind you were given. Why would an omnipotent creature confey in you? You can’t even read your own dogma correctly, but your going to tell an intelligent woman what to do with her own body. It wouldn’t. I can’t help it, that you can’t grasp that.
              You and your army of idiots, supporting the worst policies, the worst politicians, the greedy, all to fulfill your near crack addict obsession with pregnant women. You are only pro-birth, you would kill millions to save a dozen embryo. There is a reason, the party of god is also the party of greed. As long as you insist on forcing your personal opinion on others, there will not be peace. We will not live under the thumb of the ignorant and a great nation cannot exist under one. This rant is not just at you, it’s all those that live in that dark nasty place of religious extremism.

            113. Barry52 says:

              No, women know exactly what they are doing. They are killing their babies and that is why the majority of them develop severe depression, at least the ones who have a conscious. People like you facilitate that route.

              Now you dumb cluck, can an egg or a spermatozoa (Which comes from the MALE zygote) fully develop into a fully developed human being WITHOUT fertilization? I suppose your ignorance and stupidity leads you to say yes.

              You my deluded friend are worse than a liar. You are stupid. A zygote is…The cell formed by the union of the nuclei of two reproductive cells (gametes), especially a fertilized egg cell. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary.

              What are the two reproductive cells? Can two eggs merge and create a human being? Can two sperm merge and create a human being? C’mon bigshot, tell me.

              The zygote is what develops AFTER the egg and sperm (The gametes) entwine, THUS forming human life. I suppose you are living in bliss because the old saying goes..Ignorance is bliss.

              Now you say an egg is life and a sperm is life with the POTENTIAL for life. Pieces of paper have the POTENTIAL to become a novel but guess what my deluded friend, until words are introduced to the pages, there IS no novel. Maybe a simplistic example but I’m dealing with a simplistic person.

            114. bayhuntr says:

              This is a lie —> “They are killing their babies and that is that is why the majority of them develop severe depression” If yo start with a lie, don’t expect people to read any further. If you have to lie to support your ideology, your ideology must not be very good.

            115. Barry52 says:

              I said the ones with a conscious, something you evidently do not have. As for you not addressing the rest of my post is because you can’t.

            116. Saltydog says:

              Re “When it comes between a mothers life or the baby’s abortion, I leave that to her and God.” No you don’t, when it comes to the mothers life and the baby’s abortion, you leave that to the state. Do you even know what you are saying?

            117. Barry52 says:

              I know exactly what I am saying, it is you who has no reading comprehension seems. When it comes down to the mother’s life or the babies, that is up to her and God. If she only uses abortion as birth control then she is a selfish, cold hearted woman, NOT a mother. Plain enough for you?

            118. Saltydog says:

              No, not very plain. I guess you are now saying that abortion is wrong unless the women’s life is threatened. OK. How about when she’s he victim of rape? How about when she becomes pregnant despite attempts at contraception? How about when she finds herself pregnant but believes she is too poor or otherwise unable to provide a healthy home for a child?

              In which of these cases, oh mighty maker of laws for women, is she to be regarded as a selfish b*tch who must be made subject to the intervention of the state into her bodily affairs? Tell us, because you surely are the source of goodness and measured judgement for all women.

            119. Barry52 says:

              Remember Dave Thomas? He was adopted. Is adoption easy? No. Is it better than abortion? Yes. When she’s a victim of rape? Is it the child’s fault she was raped? Adoption. Being poor is not a reason for abortion. Abortion is the easy way out, especially when used for birth control.
              You pro-choice people keep saying HER body, HER choice. Well, what about the child’s body and choice? The most innocent and helpless of all are being slaughtered and all you think about is the woman’s rights. Biology has NOTHING to do with that.
              I have answered your claims on biology and you keep saying there is life before conception. That is the stupidest and most ignorant thing I have ever heard. IT IS NOT A FULL HUMAN LIFE. Dumb Ass.

            120. Saltydog says:

              Barry52 is waffling wildly. Now his strange claim that eggs and sperms are not alive has shifted: now we here that eggs and sperm are “not a full human life.” I guess Barry52 supposes that statement is qualified and vague and subjective enough to evade scientific scrutiny. After all, whether a cell is a “full life” or a “partial life” isn’t a distinction that is going to arise in scientific discourse.

              Like many anti-abortion people, his waffling and misnaming are the largest part of his argumentation. Observe the attempt to motivate his position by calling a fertilized egg a “child”, which of course it is not. The remainder of his argument is just claiming the privilege of dictating to women about how they may use their bodies, however horrible are the consequences for them. Raped? Too bad, since abortion of a zygote “kills a child”.

              I like to believe that some anti-abortion people are genuinely respectful of women. Too bad that a small number of ass holes like Barry encourage contempt and violence towards those that disagree with them, by filling in the holes of their bad arguments with expressions of contempt for the women who make difficult decisions about their lives, including coping with rape and poverty. The Barry’s of the anti-abortion movement make it hard to see in them any genuine respect for “life” as it is experienced by women.

            121. Barry52 says:

              Hey dumb ass. can an egg by itself produce a full human life? Can a sperm by itself produce a full human life? Ignorant idiot.

              If we listen to narrow minded, cold hearted jerks like you they would like to be able to kill the baby right up to the day they are going home. Quit trying to muddy the water jerk.

            122. Saltydog says:

              You ask perfectly obvious and irrelevant questions–and this is somehow supposed to make you appear smart and me appear an “ignorant idiot”? Hilarious.

              Let me try it: is a sperm cell incapable of movement? does it lack molecular and cellular organization? does it not grow? does it not metabolize ATP like every other living cell? does it not reproduce as do other living cells (by meiosis)? Ignorance indeed.

            123. Barry52 says:

              If you aren’t going to answer the question why keep showing yourself as a fool?

              Is the sperm cell, by itself, capable of producing a full human life? A simple yes or no will suffice if you are capable.

            124. Saltydog says:

              Your is not a meaningful question, or, put another way, yours is a question that only becomes meaningful when you eliminated everything relevant about the context and agree to your completely ambiguous terms. To your silly question, is a sperm cell, by itself capable of producing a full human life, neglecting what kind of “life” is not “full”, and neglecting whether a sperm cell is “human life” (it isn’t Chimpanzee life), I suppose the only sensible answer is, “no”. A sperm by itself (e.g., on a petri plate) can only survive briefly, and cannot produce.

              Of course the same can be said for the zygote and the fetus before approximately 23 weeks–they cannot survive, so I suppose in terms of your personal conceptual scheme, it cannot *by itself* produce a “full human life”, whatever that is.

              Meanwhile, if as I suppose when you mean “by itself”, you mean without the assistance of the complex physiological processes enabled by the mother, her blood supply, immune system, and without the specific physio-chemical processes that enable the endometrial cells of the uterus to bind to the embryo, and without the social supports that ensure the mother has adequate nutrition and medical care–then, no, the fetus cannot “by itself” produce a “full (or partial) human life”.

              If by “by itself” you mean to include all of those complex dependencies that are required before an embryo can develop into an infant, well, that’s an odd take on “by itself”, but it’s probably what you have to mean. In any case, both embryo and sperm cell are complexly dependent on their environment to carry on to the production of an infant. Sorry. Sometimes the world is a bit complex, however much we’d like to reduce it is yes/no answers. Still, probably the best answer to your simplistic question is “no” and “no”: neither sperm nor fertilized egg are capable by themselves of producing “full human life”.

            125. Barry52 says:

              So, you say no, a sperm cannot produce a full, HUMAN life. Thank you. And if you look at my question, I specified a human life so why bring a chimp into the picture?

              The zygote though IS capable of producing a full human life within the mothers (HUMAN MOTHER) womb if cared and nurtured, as a mother and society should do and renders moot your rather tepid description of life within the womb. And since there is scientific evidence of DNA at conception that proves there is life BEFORE the 23 weeks. So, life begins at conception and conception implies a fertilized egg.

            126. Saltydog says:

              Barry is absolutely incapable of handling complexity, both in text and in life, so let’s spell it out as simply as possible: the sperm cannot produce a full human life, and in exactly the same sense neither can the fertilized egg.

              Or, if he would insist that his words have the peculiar meaning that “by itself” means “assuming a convergence of lots of different events”, then *both* statements are true: the sperm can produce a full human life, as can the fertilized egg.

              The point is, *both statements have the same truth value*, given the ambiguous and unscientifically motivated vocabulary that Barry is attached to.

              And the further point is, that whichever set of statements he wished to adopt for himself, nothing much at all follows relevant to the abortion debate. In particular, that life begins at conception in no ways follows from either answer to the set of questions. And, even supposing that the fertilized egg arose from non-cellular/non-alive precursors, which Barry seems to believe, Barry doesn’t even understand that there’s still the need to make the case that “this curious twist to the term “life” should deprive the mother of bodily autonomy.

              Barry and his ilk are quite evidently far beyond the need for normal arguments, logic, and science. They just have an open live-chat with God, or with someone who tells them he/she is god.

            127. Barry52 says:

              Obtuse; not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

              The preceding definition is you in a nutshell.

              The sperm and a fertilized egg bears NO resemblance to one another at all. See if you can catch up Sparky. The sperm, as you concede, CANNOT produce a FULL HUMAN LIFE by itself. BUT my willfully ignorant friend, a fertilized egg CAN. IF it is cared for and not miscarried.

              Why is that so hard for you to understand? And THAT is the point I have been trying to make all along. A sperm and an egg, although both have the building blocks of life, CANNOT produce a full human life. Put them together by conception and you have life that is capable of producing a full human being.

              I do NOT condone murder, which you and your ilk call abortion and you blithely grant a woman the right to murder her child.

              God is the creator of life, deal with it. He is the One that says (Thou shalt not kill) or, commit murder. Now before you come back with some sort of asinine rebuttal. remember. God is God and you and me ain’t. So don’t try to argue something you have absolutely no idea about. Which is scripture.

            128. Saltydog says:

              Notes on a Christianistic Anti-choicer, Barry52
              1) produces a long string of insults that rather suggest his animus towards women is probably more linked to being an asshat that being a Christian.
              2) Observes that God proscribes murder, evidently trying to imply that murder has something to do with abortion, though murder involves death of a person. Has given no reason for thinking fetus is a person.
              3) Is at great pains to avoid saying that a fertilized egg is a “potential human life”, and so resorts to the evasive phrase “something that can produced a full human life”. Presumably, this is evasion is intended to avoid the obvious problems that attend an argument that the zygote, a potential person, should have the same rights as an actual person.
              4) Insists that a sperm that is fated to produce a full human life after fertilizing and egg that develops into a “full human life” is still something that cannot produce a full human life. Because “by itself”.
              5) Is extremely proud to know that an unfertilized chicken egg can never become a chicken, and believes his knowledge of this fact gives him knowledge untapped by the ignorant people including biologists who deny that the fetus is a person.

              It is apparent that Christianism thrives on the huge self-satisfaction that can be had from knowing a very small number of things and believing that God gives you correct opinions on topics about which you know nothing.

            129. Barry52 says:

              1. You, by looking down your so called educated nose at those that in your close minded opinion aren’t on your intellectual level, insult others by default.

              2, Of course God proscribes murder. And abortion, especially used as a birth control measure by ignorant, usually drunk or high individuals, IS murder. I don’t care if it is a legal statute. It’s murder, pure and simple.

              3. Definition of zygote; A zygote (from Greek ζυγωτός zygōtos “joined” or “yoked”, from ζυγοῦν zygoun “to join” or “to yoke”), is a Eukaryota cell formed by a fertilization event between two gametes. The zygote’s genome is a combination of the DNA in each gamete, and contains all of the genetic information necessary to form a new individual.

              Blows your ignorant argument away. Now, that does NOT mean that the zygote will become a human life 100% of the time BUT, and egg or sperm can NEVER become a human life by their selves.

              4. You agreed with me in an earlier post that a sperm CANNOT produce a full human life in and of itself. And, no sperm is “fated” to fertilize an egg. You make it sound like it has a mind of its own. Kind of like evolution is pushing it and we KNOW evolution is a debunked myth, right?

              5. And an unfertilized HUMAN egg cannot ever become a human life. Evolutionary biologists ARE ignorant people.

              Biologists and evolutionists pride themselves on being over educated idiots. You know, educated beyond their intelligence. At least in the case of Saltydog this proves true. You THINK you know vastly more than ANY Christian ever could because let’s face it, Christians are uneducated idiots, right? lol

            130. Saltydog says:

              re “You THINK you know vastly more than ANY Christian ever could because let’s face it, Christians are uneducated idiots, right?” I have many very educated Christian friends, and Christian biologist friends, too, who seem to have no problem reconciling their faith with their religious commitments. So, are Christians uneducated idiots? Er, no, Barry52 is no way typical of Christians.

            131. Barry52 says:

              What does “have no problem reconciling their faith with their religious commitments” mean, exactly? I understand there are many Christians, as worldly as can be, who believe in evolution and thinks that biology proves it in some weird way. I wouldn’t label them as the sharpest tool in the shed either.

            132. Saltydog says:

              Re “Biologists and evolutionists pride themselves on being over educated idiots.” Barry52 seems to be coming unglued here in his rabid hatred of women and scientists. “Pride themselves on being… idiots”?? Perhaps he means that scientists are idiots who pride themselves on their education. But who knows, Barry52 seems to be increasingly unhinged, just like his Christianist anti-choice zealots. No telling what he might say. Weird…

            133. Barry52 says:

              lol I love women, I just hate that some of them have no problem with murdering their children and then there are people like you who support it.

              Science is a noble idea, scientists are noble individuals that have benefited mankind greatly but when pseudo-scientists and biologists, much like yourself, start supporting murder and the debunked theory of evolution, that’s where science ends and BS begins.

              And your little tactic of clouding my statements with your little snide remarks isn’t working.

            134. kwkr says:

              Omg, if you think youre even close to standing a chance in exchanging facts with Salty Dog, you deceive yourself!

            135. Barry52 says:

              Salty Dog your hero? Because he is an ignorant idiot.

            136. kwkr says:

              Lol you just keep thinking that, such an impressive comeback!

            137. bayhuntr says:

              Barry52 – You’re so funny… Matthew 7:1

            138. Barry52 says:

              You’re so illiterate. Matthew 7:1 only means not to judge someone if you are doing the exact same thing. I’m not doing what Salty Dog is doing or saying since he foolishly believes in evolution as a scientific fact. So, he’s an idiot.

            139. GoldenMediocrity says:

              The female body naturally aborts a substantial amount of pregnancies. If the functions of a woman’s body is by God’s design, than wouldn’t that mean God aborts babies?

            140. Lippyone says:

              No.. A silly statement. There are many medical reasons why that happens..

            141. GoldenMediocrity says:

              Obviously the reasons are medical. I was pointing out the hole in the argument posed by religious people.

            142. Lippyone says:

              The female body does not abort a substantial amount of pregnancies. In each cycle the female only produces a small number of eggs. If they don’t get fertilized they are passed out of the body. If they are fertilized they will usually become attached inside the uterus. Sometimes the zygote does not attach or for some other reason it will abort naturally, but it is just one fertilized egg, not a bunch of them. So a substantial amount of pregnancies are not aborted.

            143. GoldenMediocrity says:

              Thank you for the explanation. I too, however, have taken biology and am aware of the process. “Substantial” may not be the appropriate word for a single female, but in general terms there are a substantial amount of natural occurring abortions. Regardless of frequency, my point still stands.

            144. Jerry A says:

              About 40% of fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted, usually early enough that most women do not realize it is anything more than an unusually heavy menstrual flow. The best explanation (hypothesis) is that the fertilized egg does not function well due to a bad combination of genes (highly simplified). It seems that, *if* it were true that “life begins at conception” like the right wingers say, then God is practicing abortion in much higher numbers than any human could ever do.

            145. GoldenMediocrity says:

              My point exactly but articulated much better.

            146. jimv1983 says:

              An abortion requires a decision. What you are referring to as a natural abortion is really a miscarriage.

            147. bayhuntr says:

              I guess if you don’t believe in intelligent design, you are correct. If you do, then every miscarriage is planned.

            148. jimv1983 says:

              I absolutely don’t believe in intelligent design since there is no scientific evidence to have such a belief.

            149. bayhuntr says:

              Then on that, we have complete agreement.

            150. jimv1983 says:

              Well that’s something we agree on.

            151. GoldenMediocrity says:

              A spontaneous abortion is also known as a miscarriage. The terms are not mutually exclusive.

            152. jimv1983 says:

              No, it isn’t.

              Abortion is defined as: the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.

              A miscarriage doesn’t involve deliberate intent.

            153. GoldenMediocrity says:

              Yes, it is. I didn’t say “abortion”, I said “spontaneous abortion”. You can find the definition in any medical dictionary and is used in most post secondary classrooms.

            154. Lippyone says:

              No.

            155. GoldenMediocrity says:

              The word no means nothing without an argument to follow in any debate.

            156. bayhuntr says:

              Why are you suggesting SnoGo is ignorant? If no birth has taken place there is no person. …Unless you have a different personal opinion than I do. Fortunately in America everyone has a right to their own opinions.

            157. jimv1983 says:

              A human life exists long before birth.

            158. bayhuntr says:

              Like I’ve said many times, that is your personal opinion, go with it. If you think it starts at the beginning of time, cool! It you think it starts in your left nut, watch out for those wet dreams! If you think it starts in the ovary, keep that woman pregnant! If you think is starts with the first breath, like in Gen 2:7 run with it. That is the beauty of America, you’re free to have any personal opinion you want. Isn’t that great?

            159. jimv1983 says:

              It’s not an opinion. It’s science. At fertilization you have a full set of human DNA (this if basic genetics) that has all the characteristics that science has determined as life. Alive + human = human life.

            160. bayhuntr says:

              Yes, we understand that is what your opinion is. It’s not mine. And before fertilization you have half a full set of human DNA (this is basic genetics). Again, a sperm from a human IS human and it is alive, alive + human = human life.

            161. jimv1983 says:

              But isn’t not FULLY human. A human has 46 chromosomes. A sperm and an egg only have 23. Without each other they are nothing.

              And no it isn’t an option. It’s fact. Do you even know the difference between opinion and fact?

              Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

              Scienficic Fact: A repeatable careful observation or measurement (by experimentation or other means), also called empirical evidence.

            162. jimv1983 says:

              No because no life has been created yet.

            163. Minerva Mullick says:

              I am now an American Independent after thoroughly analyzing my former party of affiliation, and arriving at the conclusion that you should not say one thing, and then do the complete opposite when it suits you! Here is the thought provoking question that made me see the hypocrisy of my former political party. Is a life worth more before birth, or after birth? How can you proclaim to be pro-life during a woman’s pregnancy, but then not see anything wrong with the uncaring attitude of not wanting to help the mother when she is not able to provide for that new life a roof over their heads, food, healthcare, education, etc.,. Denying these things to ANY human being is against Jesus’ teachings, and if you question this statement please read the bible! The bible does warn us to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing. It is deceptive to proclaim to be the party of the Evangelicals when you do not practice Jesus’ teachings!! You will know the tree by its fruit!!

            164. scottsdalebubbe says:

              American Independent as in the political party under which George Wallace ran for president?????

            165. Barry52 says:

              Spiritually there is. At death, the spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In order fr Him to have given it He had to know it.

              Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

          3. Diane Stanley says:

            Fuck off, You sound ridiculous.

          4. Roy Merritt says:

            So Professor you say that if you are against abortion then you get a free pass on starving people, shutting out the elderly, paying substandard wages that will not sustain life, Read James Chapter 5 and Luke 6 vs 24 and see how Jesus and the apostles think of the wealthy and how they treat people. It wasn’t Lazarus that went to Hell it was the rich man that watched Lazarus waste away on his own doorstep. There is nothing in the Bible that supports the Republican agenda, however the Republican agenda is very much like the Fascist agenda.

            1. randigb says:

              That is really an uninformed comment. The top 5 wealthiest Americans are all Democrats. If you add in the top 10, only 2 are Republicans. Looking at the charitable contributions from all of them, the two Republicans, as a % of their wealth, give more than the 8 Democrats.

            2. Roy Merritt says:

              Randigb< you went off on a tangent there and left the subject all together. I didn't say Republican or Democrat in being rich, only what the Bible says about the rich. The percentage that the rich give means nothing, it is what the rich do, they with hold wages and charge to much for medical and medicine to gain profits, read James 5 and see how God really rakes the wealthy over the coals. Riches without compassion for people is what condemns them to hell. Did the rich man go outside his gate and like the Good Samaritan bring Lazarus in and bind up his sores and feed him, no he ignored the plight of the poor and so God put him in HELL to suffer forever.

            3. randigb says:

              Republican – facist agenda. Really?

            4. Roy Merritt says:

              MIscellaneous stuff, lets see, take Ezekiel 16- 49-50 God destroyed Sodom for not taking care of the poor and needy among other things and Homosexuality is not mentioned. Sodom was a city state as there were no countries in those days. So if Governments fail to take care of their citizens they are held accountable. Lets see take Luke chapter 6 vs 24, where Jesus says Woe to you rich for you have already received your reward or Matthew 19 vs 24 where Jesus says it is easier for a camel to go thorough the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I can go on but it is not miscellaneous stuff the rich have an obligation to use their wealth to help others or they will not see heaven. I know of only one rich man that is in heaven R.G. Letourneau a billionaire who used 80% of his wealth to help the poor and under privileged, there may be others but most wealthy have zero compassion on other people.

            5. Barry52 says:

              What a crock. You’re taking you false information from a gay “scholar” that tried to turn everyone in the bible into a gay. The very act of sodomy was taken from the city named Sodom.

            6. Barry52 says:

              So? A poor man that acted like that would go to hell too.

            7. Jerilyn Bridges says:

              The Top five are Republican!
              Number one and two: the Koch Brothers Number Three Rokefellers, Number Four, The Walton Family, Number Five The Descendents of JP Morgan! Sorry , no Democrats in that bunch!

            8. randigb says:

              For whatever reason, my previous comment was not posted. Your information is incorrect. Think again. I did overlook one of the Koch brothers being in the top 5. They barely beat out Zuckerberg for being #5 & 6.

              Democrats:
              #1 – Bill Gates
              #2 – Warren Buffet
              #3 – Larry Ellison
              #4 – Jeff Bezos
              #7 – Mark Zuckerberg
              #8 – Michael Bloomberg
              #9 – Jim Walton (hard to believe a Walton is a democrat)
              #10 – Larry Page

              Republicans:
              #5 & 6 – Koch Brothers

              Check out the Forbes, Sept, 2015 issue for reference.

            9. jimv1983 says:

              No way is Jim Walton a democrat.

              Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have given a lot to charity. The Koch brothers are scum who try and buy political candidates for their own financial gain regardless of who it hurts.

            10. Jeanne Tucker says:

              I think it greatly matters what kind of charity they contribute. If their charitable donations are to non-profit think tanks that promote their screw the poor policies or if they donate to direct aid organizations like Red Cross, Salvation Army, food banks or medical expenses.

              All charitable donations aren’t the same when considering how they adhere to the teachings of Jesus.

            11. Momoends says:

              it really matters what kind of charity they contribute, i agree; considering they are wealthy enough to feed the whole population of many small countries devastated by hunger and war , the fact that they are “contributing” to “charity” causes is just such an important fact that claims loudly how hypocrite they all are

            12. Momoends says:

              would you list those 10 wealthiest americans?

            13. jimv1983 says:

              One of the wealthiest people in America is Bill Gates(a democrat) who has given way more than any Republican.

            14. Barry52 says:

              Biblical illiterate. The bible is very much in the corner of conservatism. I would go on but this hypocritical site would just take down my argument because Liberals can’t handle the truth.

          5. Leigh Gabel says:

            I believe there is also a passage in the Bible that states ‘when you were born, I breathed life into you.’ If that is the case, then abortion is not murder as there is no life until it is born.

            1. homo cogitans says:

              According to Jewish law…45 days post birth

            2. Lippyone says:

              In earlier passages God states that “I knew you before you were born”.

          6. Ellen H. says:

            Your Bible also says a whole lot more about helping the poor and needy than it does about when life starts. Your agenda is to control women. If you are so concerned with murder, then do something about all the nut jobs with guns. If you are so pro-life then fight against the death penalty, fight for universal health care, and fight for the people who can’t fight for themselves.

            1. Jerilyn Bridges says:

              In the Gita, Krishna warns about persons who claim to know you from the womb! The only saints in the womb were Krishna and the Pandavas! Kamsa claimed to know them! However the way they knew him was that he attempted to rape their mother ling before they were concieved! They said ” Before we were Alive” that means that in the womb we are NOT Alive!

            2. Ellen H. says:

              I’m guessing you meant this for the person I replied to.

            3. Barry52 says:

              What? Is this a joke post because it got a laugh out of me.,

            4. Barry52 says:

              Another stupid Liberal. Jesus took women as His disciples when at that time women was considered as property. You have a lot to learn as to what the bible says about women.

              The death penalty is reserved for particularly heinous crimes. Tell me, what has the unborn child done that is worthy of death? The unborn child is the most innocent of Gods creation and cannot fight for itself. Sad that it relies on people like you to do that.

            5. Ellen H. says:

              Wow, another person who doesn’t have valid points and has to resort to the base fallacy of name-calling. I know a lot of what the Bible says about women. However, I find it ridiculous that people claim to be pro-life but only care about the unborn. They don’t care once a child is here since they’re usually the ones against universal health care, education, and programs to help the poor. Get it right. You’re pro-birth, not pro-life.

            6. Barry52 says:

              Then you know hypocrites. We, as a people. pay taxes and give to charities that specialize in the care and nurturing of unwed mothers and their babies. Those are valid points. So, what you are saying is that it is more humane to kill the unborn child than let it be born? That’s what it sounds like. That is murder no matter how you slice it. Maybe you should do more to help than feel disgust toward the ones who you describe. I am pro-life and all that implies. which is also care for the mother.

            7. Ellen H. says:

              I’m not for abortion, but if that is what a woman chooses or if her parents make her get one, I want it to be a safe, sterile procedure. When abortions occur, it’s not a viable human being. You can think what ever you want about me, but I’m not changing my stance.

            8. Arturo59 says:

              In the Old Testament, God punishes people to their children and their children’s children. Were these future generations “the most innocent of God’s creations”? Yet, they were cursed by God!

            9. jimv1983 says:

              I agree with the death penalty part and innocence of the unborn child but the religious stuff is stupid.

            10. bayhuntr says:

              Why are you judging Ellen to be a stupid liberal? Maybe you should explain what pages of the bible you follow, so we know what to expect. You clearly are interested in Matthew 7:1 and completely ignore Ezekiel 37: 5&6 and screw this one, right? Exodus 21:22.

              Hypocrite.

              A fetus is not a child, a zygote is not a child, a child is a child.

            11. Barry52 says:

              I understand that it is incomprehensible to you that someone call Liberals stupid. Suck it up, they are. At the exact moment that the male sperm plunges into the female egg, it is life and alive. Get over yourself. Your misunderstanding of Matthew 7:1 is nothing new among those of you who shout, “Don’t judge me.” It is because you are doing something worthy of being judged and usually it is not a good thing. In other words, you are unwittingly showing guilt. Ezekiel 37:5-6 shows the FLESH life. Fertilization begins the SPIRITUAL life. The spark of life is imparted by the Creator at conception. PLUS, its own DNA.

            12. bayhuntr says:

              “At the exact moment that the male sperm plunges into the female egg, it is life and alive” the sperm and egg were life before that; you’re just blabbering nonsense.

              The doctrine is clear, yes, you clearly bend to suit you, that was my point all along. It’s what a week minded person does, it’s all you have. And for that, I pitty you.
              Now, if I wanted to continue to watch a monkey arrogantly tossing his own feces at people, I’d go to the zoo. Later!

            13. Barry52 says:

              The sperm and egg has a FORM of life and that life within those two gametes do NOT make human life by themselves.

              Weak minded? What but a weak mind makes the senseless claim that the life inside the sperm and egg equates to human life? It does NOT my deluded friend. If it did there would be no need of copulation. Talk about monkeys throwing feces. You must be covered with your own.

            14. bayhuntr says:

              Yes, weak minded. It’s a form of HUMAN life; it’s a human sperm and an human egg. They join to form, not just human life, but a human being. Darn, I wasn’t going to talk to the monkey any more…

            15. Barry52 says:

              You’re dumber than a box of rocks. It is NOT a form of human life you ignorant idiot. If it were. there would be no need to merge. Stupid Liberals are taking over the country, no wonder we are in the mess we are in with brain dead fools like you in charge. A human EGG and a human SPERM does NOT have the capability to form a human being by themselves. Why do I waste my time with stupid idiots like you?

            16. bayhuntr says:

              Oh look, the monkey is tossing poop again.

            17. jimv1983 says:

              I’m an anti-gun atheist and very much against abortion.

              I have no intention to control women but also think they shouldn’t have the right to control the rights of others.

              I’m actually for the death penalty but that is used to punish severe crimes such as murder. Every human life should have the right to decide if they live or die. If someone violates that right of someone what they forfeit that right for themselves. Crimes should be punished and the punishment should fit the crime. No punishment other than the death penalty is extreme enough for murders.

            18. Ellen H. says:

              So I guess you have no problem with putting an innocent person to death just because of investigative mistakes? People on death row have been exonerated by DNA evidence. Most likely innocent people have been put to death as well.
              Are you for DNA testing babies to make the fathers be as responsible for them as the women who have them? When that happens, when the men who helped create these pregnancies are made to be just as responsible as the women for the lives that result, then I might consider not being pro-choice, but until then I will always be for a woman’s right to choose.

            19. jimv1983 says:

              You do make a good point about people incorrectly being punished. However, I do think that those that are guilty do deserve death.

              “Are you for DNA testing babies to make the fathers be as responsible for them as the women who have them?”

              Absolutely!

              I’m not against a woman having the right to choose what happens to her body. I just think that right ends at her body. Her child, born or not, deserves the same right over its body as well.

          7. Jerry says:

            I know your intentions are good, but you have been misled about your own Bible. Look at Numbers 2 there is a passage about testing an adulterous wife that is essentially a priest performing an abortion. Also, in Leviticus it is made clear that gidd law considers a fetus to be property, not a life. I fully support you being against abortion, but I’m afraid the bible does not.

          8. OrganicForLife says:

            So you only like the really harsh old testament mean words? Got it. Thats what is currently wrong with society. You can’t punish people into good behavior. You can love them into it however. Ask any good mom.

          9. ianerc says:

            The Bible also tells you that life begins with breath. Pick and choose, eh?

            1. Lippyone says:

              No it doesn’t.

          10. SnoGo says:

            If God knows the individual when in the womb, then why, oh why, do 40-60% of pregnancies miscarry? God is now an abortionist? If God knows all, then why does he start pregnancies in women that will abort them? Is God facilitating abortion then?

            1. Barry52 says:

              You ain’t God, are you? He has His reasons.

            2. jimv1983 says:

              Or the more likely explanation: god doesn’t exist.

          11. Ghostdreams says:

            The Professor – This is my problem with the right wing xtian movement. You want this country run according to your religion and for those of us who don’t believe the way you do, tough. Our beliefs and our religions don’t matter a bit to you. Your people are doing everything in their power to have laws passed FORCING others to conform to how the ‘xtian right’ believes. It’s absolutely wrong and morally reprehensible to tell other people that we have to live the way you think we should because “your god” says so. What ever happened to free will? Furthermore, you have no proof of any of the claims you make regarding abortion. There is no empirical scientific proof of a soul or proof of that *magical moment* you’re pushing when “life begins.” I am very American in the way I approach this issue. YOU are entitled to your faith and your belief system as am I. So, if you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one. If you don’t believe in same sex marriage, don’t marry someone of the same sex. If you don’t believe in using birth control, don’t use it. No one is forcing you to get an abortion, or use birth control or enter into a same sex marriage. We’re not bothering you. However, the radical right xtian movement (aka the xtian Taliban) has been very busy attempting to control other people via pushing their religious viewpoint into law. A reminder for you – Jesus, himself, did NOT want a theocracy set up in his name. He even said so. And I quote, Jesus: “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36). However, whatever he did or didn’t say, those of us who are not xtian or do not subscribe to your version of Christianity should not be forced to live and believe as you do.

            1. Lippyone says:

              You forgot one important point. You are telling me I have to pay for your beliefs. Have an abortion, but don’t tell me my taxes have to help pay for it. I should not be forced to live and believe as you do. (Sound familiar?)

            2. Ghostdreams says:

              Lippyone – Riiight… Have you even thought about the lack of logic you’re exhibiting? Listen to yourself! So people with no kids shouldn’t pay taxes for education, right? People who didn’t believe we should be in Iraq shouldn’t have had to pay taxes to contribute to our military because they don’t like the war. As for health insurance, what about people who have no interest in paying for medicines that are about men’s sexual dysfunction (like viagra)? Should they be exempt from paying taxes too? What Christian scientists who don’t believe in medicine’s 99% of the time? Should they be made exempt altogether on paying taxes into our system? What about people who don’t believe in medical marijuana? Should they be exempt from paying for a cancer patients medicines? Your ridiculously inadequate “debate point” is a good example of the kind of selfish “talking points” right wing xtian wackos indulge in, in order to make themselves feel better about pushing their religious belief’s onto the rest of us. PS This week, there’s a religious rally being held in Des Moines, Iowa and the sponsors of the rally are a group of ministers – Phil Kayser, Kevin Swanson and Joel McDurmon, who support making laws so that LGBTQ people are put in prison and then executed by the state. You know who’s showing up to show their support for this? Huckabee, Cruz and Jindal.. Carson was going to attend but has sent his apologies saying something has come up. THIS is truth about the GOP/TP .. It’s always been about establishing a theocracy and pushing their god down our throats. Lippyone is just another one of their minions – Doesn’t support separation of church and state, doesn’t respect the vote of the people when they elect anyone he doesn’t like or agree with. It is really disheartening what has happened to the conservative movement in this country. It’s not a political party anymore – it’s nothing but a tent meeting that caters to the absolute worst of religious fanatics. SMH.

            3. Ellen H. says:

              The Hyde Amendment insures that no federal funds are used to pay for abortions. Consequently, your precious taxes won’t pay for it.

          12. Arun says:

            Ouch, harvest souls for God means disrespecting my non-Christian culture, religion, traditions. It seems a lot like hatred to me when you think your mission is to convert me, rather than accept me as your God made me.

          13. Letitgo says:

            YOUR beliefs. Not everyone’s. That’s the point.

          14. Arturo59 says:

            Sorry Professor, but the Bible does NOT say that the moment of conception is when life begins. In fact, it says that “God breathed into Adam the breath of life” and he was alive. The Bible has always equated life with breath life. When they take their first breath they are alive and when they take their last breath, they are dead.

            Romans 2:4 says that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

          15. Joan Diamond says:

            Actually, the Bible always refers to the breath of life, in which case, life begins with breathing. Look it up. There was a good article out on the internet that discussed this a week or so back. In every case where someone came to life (Adam, for example) it talks about God creating him and breathing life into him. Breathing = life, then life begins at birth.

            1. Lippyone says:

              Actually, Adam was created, not born. So that argument doesn’t hold water. It has been scientifically proven that life begins at fertilization. If you choose not to believe that o.k., but then you are denying proven science. As you say, it is true whether you believe it or not.

            2. bill1024 says:

              Actually, there is just as much scientific proof that Adam was created as there is that life begins at fertilization, i.e. none in either of your ignorant statements.

          16. Rayosun says:

            The Bible says nothing specifically about abortion in
            either the Old or the New Testament. But that has never prevented
            people from reading their own thoughts into the Bible.

            One example is the 5th of the great commandments, “Thou shalt
            not kill”
            The reason that pro-lifers are not justified in using this verse to
            make their case against abortion is the same reason that others are
            prevented from using this same verse to make their case against capital
            punishment, or killing in war, or killing to eat meat, namely that
            general prohibition “Thou shalt not kill” is so vague, that it could
            apply to any number of things – none of which are spelled out by the
            Bible.
            So the promoters of vegetarianism are no more justified in using “Thou
            shalt not kill” to argue against the killing and eating of meat than are
            the opponents of the death-penalty, or the pacifists to argue against
            all war.

            Another of the verses people often take from the Bible and try
            to use to prove that human life begins long before birth is
            Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.”

            Do these words prove that we exist nine months before we are
            actually born, because God said that he knows us during that period?
            No. And here’s why:

            How can anyone limit God’s knowledge to those nine months? This
            verse is obviously saying that God knows us not just before the day we
            are born but even years before we are conceived, from the beginning of
            time, if you will. When God knows us is totally independent of the day we become human beings and proves nothing about that event. ”
            See much MORE at http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PlannedParenthoodSupport.html

        3. Midori Clough Harris says:

          Marty is sayng he is an atheist, not the pastor.

    3. Camoleft says:

      I believe that MARTY is saying that MARTY is an avowed atheist – not the author of this post.

    4. Minerva Mullick says:

      I am an American Independent and a former lifetime Republican who finally saw the light in 2008. I applaud Professor Melanie Tubbs for speaking up against coercion and other bullying tactics utilized by those whose political ideology differ from hers. My daughter who moved from Las Vegas to North Carolina about a year ago, is a case worker for Brunswick County in North Carolina. She is desperately trying to move back to Las Vegas, because she is tired of dealing with the exact same ignorance displayed by the area residents/co-workers.

      1. Megan Carpenter says:

        I have lived in North Carolina all my life and I know how she feels. It’s as if the majority of people around you have the same beliefs that are against yours and it’s practically impossible to not overhear the hatred and ignorance in everyday life.

        1. Barry52 says:

          Then leave.

          1. CAESAR'S MESSIAH says:

            That’s like someone saying if you don’t like President Obama then leave. That’s what cowards do, in the land of the free and home of the BRAVE we stand and fight for what we believe in or we can simply express our opinion (freedom of speech.) Otherwise every time YOU complain about something just repeat the words of Barry52 to yourself, “Then leave”.

          2. Dave says:

            Why should she leave? True patriotism is standing up to those harming your nation and community by preaching hate and division. I hope Pastor Tubbs’ article will motivate her for action or at least give her hope for change.

            1. Ian Seign says:

              Using Barry52’s logic, the American colonists should have all left and returned to England because
              revolution is hard.

            2. Dave says:

              Wait… Barry52 had logic?

            3. davidc says:

              I am pretty sure that the American colonists did leave. They left England.

            4. smb11 says:

              Tory’s left the Colonies for England or Canada. Some stayed in what was to become the United States. In the US, we have the DAR. In Canada, they celebrate the Loyalists.

          3. 788eddie says:

            I think you just substantiated her point, Ace.

          4. Matt says:

            That’s always the coward’s answer: leave. I love how idiots assume it’s so easy and cheap to just uproot everything you’ve struggled and fought to build.

            1. earthmom1960 says:

              I really like it when they want to “take their country back” as if it ever really belonged to any one group and the rest of us are interlopers who are stealing it somehow. The divide and conquer technique and casting us, liberals, as thieves of America. How twisted is that?

              I was born here, raised here, educated here, work here, pay taxes here, have never even been to a different country (well Canada for an afternoon once), and yet am commanded to leave as if my beliefs make me a lesser American. Pitiful.

            2. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              If anyone in the United States were able to take their country back, then it would have to be the native Americans, from whose ancestors the English, French and Spanish immigrants to the Americas originally stole it. But of course, if you think that way, then you’ll tear the nations that exist apart over the politics of people long dead.
              There are always angry and stupid people who demand that everyone but themselves leave, who truly believe that everyone who’s truly a representative of their nation supports their views and that everyone else is either disloyal or an outright traitor. Sadly, you can’t legislate against stupid, and people seem to be all too tolerant of bullies and bullying behaviour most of the time.
              Barry52 is clearly one of those self-entitled bullies who thinks this way, and whose comments should be treated with exactly the degree of respect that they have been shown. Which is to say, not a lot.

            3. Barry52 says:

              Says the so-called enlightened Liberal who doesn’t have enough sense to know that the “Native Americans” weren’t so native. This country was founded upon Godly principles and based upon biblical commandments. It is the Liberal bullies that try to rewrite history and force THEIR anything goes policies down every one else’s throats. Case in point; Same Sex Marriage “Rights”. Just because misguided justices, both Liberal and Conservative, made their opinions law does not make it so. The two women justices had performed same sex marriages and the right thing to do would have been to recuse themselves but Liberals don’t care what is right, they just want everyone to cowtow to THEM. This country started on the road to hell when Liberals demanded that God be taken out of the classroom. Well, now we are seeing the consequences of THAT stupid demand. Our kids no longer have respect but think they somehow deserve it just because they were born. Slaughtering millions of innocents and calling it “women’s rights.” Perversion is now acceptable as normal and gays are preachers in some of our churches. This nation is headed to hell and it only took the Liberals about 50 years to do it.

            4. MyLovelyNose says:

              We know: you LOVE to talk about gay perversion. You love it SO much. You can’t help yourself from talking about gays and gay perversion and the perverted things GAYS . . . . do . . . that you think about all the time. The gays do things, and you can’t help but think about those THINGS.

              We understand you, barry.

            5. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              No, it wasn’t; specifically, the United States was founded to be a haven of religious tolerance, which Europe at the time decidedly was not. This is why the Pilgrim Fathers went there, why the Quakers went there, why a great many pagans went there in the early days. The Christian Right likes to re-write history and would really like to see a theocracy. Those of us with a brain in our heads have studied history and know what happens when you get a theocracy: persecution, inquisition and genocide. And we don’t want to see that.

            6. Tracy Lund says:

              Well said, and we turn to the Derp in residence for some nonsensical rebuttal based in derp.

            7. Trollhunter says:

              Oh shit, you’ve done it now! You just told Barry the World is over 5,000 yrs. old and the “Flintstones” was not a Documentary. He’ll be Googling Pat Robertson Quotes from now til the gates of hell freeze solid.

            8. Sydney Chandler says:

              Good post….but you can’t educate a fool.

            9. Tracy Lund says:

              derp.

            10. DC Harbold says:

              Again. No facts when you use the bible. The bible exists. That’s the only fact about it. Doesn’t prove its contents are real. Find some real facts, child.

          5. splashy79 says:

            And, there it is. The attitude that we are talking about. Bully saying that if you don’t agree with the haters, then get out.

            1. Barry52 says:

              I realize I am in the land of Liberals and reason makes no sense to any of you. This “Professor” Tubbs you are all fawning after is a Liberal idiot and a biblical illiterate. No wonder you worship her.

            2. Wogson says:

              I love how you use the word “Liberal” like it’s derogatory. Do you know what the word actually means, or do you just use it to replace the racial slurs you would normally use?

            3. Barry52 says:

              Oh, I know what it means. God has a liberal amount of love for the human race HE created. That is the general term for liberal.

              Now, Liberal politics is a despised and filthy form of thought.

              See the difference?

            4. Wogson says:

              “Liberal” comes from the Latin word “liber” which means “to be free”. The founding fathers of this nation were all liberals. You don’t need a bible. You need a thesaurus. And if you don’t know what a thesaurus is, then get a dictionary and work your way forward.

            5. Barry52 says:

              If the FF were liberals then they would have had the “legality” of gay marriage prominently written in the constitution. If the FF were Liberals they would have had marriage in general written into the constitution, If the FF were liberal then there would have been no need for Woe vs. Wade, the “legality and RIGHTS of abortion would have already been written into the constitution, If the FF were Liberal they would have had no use for borders or national sovereignty, they would have just said come on in. And yes, I know the words on the Statue of Liberty but that was written with the understanding it would be done LEGALLY.

              In other words, if the FF were Liberal they would have been clueless like you and thank God they wrote the Constitution PRAYERFULLY with the hope of the guidance of God. You Liberals can try to rewrite history all you want. It doesn’t work anymore and the proof is all you have for the democratic nominees are liars and crooks and a fried brain socialist.

            6. Saltydog says:

              Yes, Barry52 is right, the words on Lady Liberty should be understood in light of the original poem, which made clear the importance of legal immigration:
              ***
              Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
              give me your applicants, who have acquired a Permanent Resident Card,
              and who have completed N-400, Application for Naturalization.

              The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
              who have an accredited representative who has filed form G-28, Notice of Entry as Appearance as Attorney or Representative.

              Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, along with processing fees of $680, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
              ***

              Unfortunately, budget constraints did not allow for the full poem to be inscribed in time for the unveiling of the statue.

            7. Barry52 says:

              Cute.

            8. Bonnie Raymond says:

              The poem was a tribute to the land which at the time was welcoming to people who wanted to be Americans.

            9. smb11 says:

              Actually, I don’t think there was ever a time when “America” was welcoming to all people. Plymouth Colony didn’t welcome Quakers or Jews. Catholics probably were not popular either. The Irish were not welcomed. “No Irish Need Apply” were posted in Boston. Italians weren’t welcome. No immigrant group is welcomed today.
              I am sure First People’s weren’t too happy when they saw what the immigration of Europeans was doing to the neighborhood.
              I think the Statue of Liberty was a French myth of what America could be. Just my opinion, though.

            10. Bonnie Raymond says:

              It’s very rare to have everyone agree, but immigrants were actively sought by industry and by those who promoted westward expansion. Of course there were those who felt that they would be better off without immigrants, but many felt welcomed and became the new Americans.

            11. barely_normal says:

              Wow…you won’t get much here, as you’ve shown you are too far gone.

            12. Trollhunter says:

              Why are you folks feeding this Troll. It’s obvious he’s trolling. Why would he show up on a liberal site and start a war if not? He’s not here to discuss anything but rather to hijack the thread which he’s managed to do.
              Arguing with people like this is a waste of time and effort. Either Barry52 is a young punk kid with some serious issues or he’s been so immersed in Republican/Conservative hate filled propaganda that he’s now completely indoctrinated, and it’s unlikely he will ever be able to fit in with main stream America. He will claim to be patriotic but most likely has never served in the military. My guess is he works some minimum wage job if he works at all. He will attempt to degrade and humiliate anyone that is unlike him because he has some serious inferiority issues. Barry was most likely the school bully, most certainly wanted to hang out with the pretty people but most likely his personality made him kryptonite to anyone that might have befriended him. Barry most likely lives at home with his mother and is using a computer and internet she bought and is paying for working her ass off while he lays around masturbating to the latest edition of Ebony.
              I would like to feel pity or empathy toward Barry but I can’t. He has the option to open his mind but refuses. He is full of hate and has no respect for the feelings or needs of others that don’t conform to his world view. My bet is that Barry is shy around others when face to face, but here in the anonymity of the virtual world he feels free to let his rage overflow. Barry is pissed at the world like most of his like minded brothers and sisters. They have been indoctrinated by people that use religion and faux patriotism to push their own personal agenda and they have convinced Barry that he’s an integral part of that plan. What Barry isn’t aware of is that these people have a hidden agenda and he is only a pawn for them to use to move forward with their plans to form a dominunistic, theocratic world order. I know, those are big thoughts and big words and Barry may now be lost, but then he is already lost.
              He throws the word “Liberal” at others as an insult, not understanding in the least that it was liberal movements that guaranteed him many of the rights and personal freedoms he has now and that if this country were governed by the conservative ideology he holds so dearly close, that many of those freedoms would soon vanish in the name of God and Country. He might shake himself awake at some point, but will be too late.
              I’m responding to your post because I refuse to engage with Barry. I have better things to do than wrestle a pig in a mud puddle.

            13. Robin Hoose says:

              Thank you for so eloquently calling Barry what he is. Kudos!!

            14. Barry52 says:

              How long did it take you to come up with this little rant? lol Since I haven’t even looked at this little Liberal rats nest in a couple months it must do your heart good to be able to take all the time you need to put together this disjointed diatribe. lol

            15. smb11 says:

              One simple question, Barry. How does your behavior exemplify Jesus’ behavior. Are you more like Jesus or your you more like the Pharisee’s, as described in the New Testament. Would Jesus claim you as a follower or would he say, “Viper!”

            16. Barry52 says:

              My behavior is the same as Elijah. He slaughtered the prophets of Baal. You Liberals are taking God and dressing Him up as something He is not. You support and allow homosexuality. You want to allow Islamic ideologues that want to kill all infidels, They have slaughtered Christian in the middle east and you scummy Liberals are willing to let them in our country. That is an abomination to God. Guess what? If you don’t like it, that is not MY problem. God Almighty, who by the way IS Jesus Christ, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sexual perversions.

              I don’t know why I even point these things out. You are blinded to the truth and you have a mental disconnect when it comes to reality. Jesus’s behavior os to save those that are lost and offer eternal life to those who will accept. On HIS terms though, not YOURS.

            17. DC Harbold says:

              And Santa Claus knows if you’re naughty or nice. Grow up.

            18. Barry52 says:

              You PO’d because the tooth fairy didn’t leave you a quarter for your dentures?

            19. DC Harbold says:

              I have all my original teeth, thank you. And yes. Jesus is akin to the tooth fairy as well.

            20. smb11 says:

              As Christians, we are supposed to be like Christ, not Elijah.

              Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. — Matthew 22:35-40.

              From your posts, I expect you would have thrown the first stone.
              John 8:1-11

              The Sheep and the Goats
              Matthew 25:31-46
              Are you with the sheep or the goats? I expect you are with the goats.

              Lot offered his virgin daughters to the crowd. The story ended in incest between Lot and his daughters. If you attribute this to God, it was not his finest hour. Jesus would not do this.

              You have more in common with the Fundamentalist Muslims than you do with Jesus.

            21. grannieannie2 says:

              Poor Barry52. I sincerely pity you! You must have a sore bottom from sitting in a splinter-filled church pew so often.

            22. MyLovelyNose says:

              Okay, barry, we see what your problem is. You’re a homophobe in the closet and in denial.

              We understand. Very well.

            23. Barry52 says:

              And you are a heterophobe trying to be brave. We understand.

            24. Tracy Lund says:

              derp.

            25. Wogson says:

              It’s Roe v. Wade not “Woe vs. Wade” you ignorant rube. Seriously, how old are you? My four year old has a better grasp of American history and civics than you do.

              The Founding Fathers did not mention marriage, same-sex or otherwise, in the Constitution because they recognized that government has no place in such matters. And unless you are an American Indian, you are an immigrant, too. Sorry if this bursts your bubble of thinking that you are better than other people, or that you are somehow “more American”.

              And since the Founders were mostly atheists — or, at best, theistic rationalists — it is (thankfully) extremely unlikely that prayer or “the guidance of God” played any part in the construction of the Constitution of the United States, which is one of the most celebrated secular documents in history. Also, have you ever heard of the Jefferson Bible? That’s right. Thomas Jefferson wrote HIS OWN BIBLE.

              So, in addition to a thesaurus and a dictionary, I highly recommend that you add some history books to your reading list. Or, at the very least, something that was published more recently than during Bronze Age Palestine. To get you started, search for the following terms on Wikipedia:

              Liberalism

              Founding Fathers of the United States

              Separation of Church and State in the United States #The U.S. Constitution

              Theistic Rationalism

              Jefferson Bible

              Roe v. Wade

              I sincerely hope that you take some time to get better informed. I don’t think you realize how much people are laughing at you when they read some of the things you’ve been espousing. Hope you get well soon and best wishes.

            26. Barry52 says:

              Where do I start? Trying to have a intelligent conversation with a Liberal is like…nothing I have ever tried before.

              Woe vs. Wade. “Woe” to this country for thinking it is acceptable to slaughter innocent children and even to kill them for their body parts. THAT Woe you illiterate idiot.

              Maybe they didn’t mention marriage was because the majority of people KNEW what marriage represented and they didn’t think they would ever have to actually DEFINE it. But I’m sure if they knew how the Liberal idiots would act two hundred years later they DEFINITELY would have defined it as an an act between ONE man and ONE woman. They would have DEFINITELY put in there that a perversion of the God given institution of marriage would NOT be tolerated and all the gays would have to just have been satisfied with all the rights that are afforded EVERYONE. They aren’t special. They aren’t above anyone else just because they are gay. They have the same rights as everyone else. Marriage ISN’T a right.

              American Indians immigrated here from elsewhere, so that makes THEM immigrants and they wiped out the tribes that were here before them. Catch up on your archaeology dimwit.

              ANd it is a flat out LIE that the FF were atheists. Tell that to someone who doesn’t bother to check and know their history, NOT the Liberal re=written history either. That is how you Liberals spread your garbage. Sadly, most of the American people are so apathetic they don’t bother to check you out. They just think because the Liberals support gays and murder that you must be all right. What a sad joke you are.

              Jefferson wrote his own bible. So? The KJV makes him look like a featerweight and you know why? Because Jefferson was a narcissist fool that only OTHER narcissists actually care about.

              Why would I want to search on Wikipedia? They let Liberal liars like YOU post information. I think I’ll stick with Conservapedia.

              Oh, Separation of Churh and State? Check out Jefferson’s letter to the Dansbury Baptists. because THAT is the ONLY place you will find it. It is NOT in the Constitution.

              Gosh, how stupid you Liberals really are.

            27. Wogson says:

              LMFAO! It is painfully clear that you have suddenly realized that you have no argument. Calling people names and making things up doesn’t change what is true and what isn’t. But you obviously aren’t interested in facts. You’ve got this make believe world that you’ve created for yourself and NOTHING is going to change your mind. What a sad little person you are.

            28. Barry52 says:

              And here we go again. When it comes to the TRUTH. Liberals laugh hysterically and attack the messenger rather than the message. Bet you didn’t even bother to look at the Danbury Baptist’s letter, did you? No, I KNOW you didn’t because you are still a little lost Liberal. I understand WHY Jefferson wrote his own bible. Do you? No, of course you don’t. You don’t even care.

              What a sad little man you must be in reality.

            29. Wogson says:

              Dearest Barry,

              I’ve been looking through your other posts on this blog and feel that I’ve been judging you too harshly. For that I apologize. Suddenly it all seemed to make sense: your gender neutral moniker, the number 52, your vitriolic comments. Please allow me to offer some words of encouragement.

              1) It’s ok that you are uneducated. It’s something that I know you have the wherewithal to improve. All it takes is a little self confidence. After all, you were able to get that toddler down the street to show you how to log onto the internet. That took guts. I mean, the best thing you have going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself. You’ve proven that time and again on this thread.

              2) Don’t be ashamed that you are gay. I know that you’ve desperately been trying to hide it by coming off as a hate-filled homophobe. You don’t have to run from who you are. You are among friends here. If you look around, you’ll notice that no one here is trying to make you feel like less of a person because of who you choose to share your bed with. We all celebrate your right to love and marry whomever you choose. True love and the physical expression of that love is one of the joys of life that we all share as human beings. It should be celebrated.

              Love yourself, Sherry, as the Good Lord loves us all.

              God bless.

            30. Barry52 says:

              lol Typical Liberal deflections. You have no argument whatsoever to rebut me so you go on a self righteous rant.

              Probably an atheists too, or a Liberal Christian which is just about as bad.

            31. Wogson says:

              I know a Mexican who could probably help you with your English. You should ease up on the gas huffing, though.

            32. Tracy Lund says:

              ATHEISTS!!!!! derp.

            33. Trixiebelle says:

              Says the man who thinks the Native American’s immigrated here from somewhere else … eyes rolling.

            34. smb11 says:

              Actually, Native American’s (First Peoples) did immigrate. One theory has some coming over a land bridge from Siberia during the last Ice Age. I have been told that some indigenous peoples have origin stories of come out of the ground in what we now call the Americas.
              Even though they physically came from another continent, they were here first.

            35. smb11 says:

              After reading you on this thread, it is obvious you have no training in the study of history or even what is involved in the study of history. Your statements are indefensible when one looks at the historical record.

            36. hey momma says:

              Barry, Barry, Barry, not getting any “likes” here are you? Time for me to say Goodbye. You are not worth the time or effort.

            37. Tracy Lund says:

              derp.

            38. Sydney Chandler says:

              You have no message. I hope you don’t call yourself a Christian. You are exactly who this article is talking about. You come to an obviously liberal site, spew your garbage and expect people to listen to you! You’re an internet troll. Very rude behavior and your ignorance is astonishing.

            39. Barry52 says:

              Yes, I come to an obviously Liberal site and am justified in my opinions of Liberals. You all are a bunch of narcissist dweebs that want someone to lead you around by the nose.

            40. Trixiebelle says:

              Tell us Barry, WHY did Jefferson write his own bible?

            41. Barry52 says:

              Because evidently he was like all of the disgusting Liberals I have come in contact with. He thinks he is above God. And was mistaken because like all other self important Liberals I have come in contact with, he thought that man wrote his own opinions and tried to pass them off as Gods Word. In other words, he was like all other self centered Liberals I have come in contact with. He was biblically illiterate and willfully ignorant.

            42. Shoogi says:

              Dear Slack jawed dolt, You call the guy an “ignorant rube” then call him out for resorting to name calling? Typical Liberal BS! And this Arkansas (via Chicago) Pastor needs to put her signs up…what are you afraid of?

            43. Wogson says:

              Latoya, Tito, Jermaine. Make sense? Yeah, neither does yours. Based on Mrs. Tubbs brave post, I doubt she is afraid of much. She’s obviously not afraid of the likes of you. I have a feeling that deep down you and Barry52 are terrified.

            44. hey momma says:

              And I am sure that if the Founding Fathers knew about the NRA and what their “muskets” were now used for, there would be no Second Amendment. Die-hard Republicans consider themselves “right” and there is no room for discussion. I am now describing you and your bullying tactics.

            45. Barry52 says:

              How stupid can one person be? All one has to do is read your stupid post to find out. There WAS an NRA then and it was written into the 2nd Amendment. Arms were ALWAYS considered to be a necessary implement to

              1. Defend oneself and family
              2. To quell any government takeover.

              Go back to your corner and put the pointy hat back on.

            46. Wogson says:

              The US Constitution was written in 1787. The 2nd Amendment to that constitution was adopted in 1791. The NRA was founded in 1871. Jesus Christ, dude. And you accuse others of trying to rewrite history?

            47. Tracy Lund says:

              Let me translate bARRY53 for ya’ll:

              “DERPDERPDERP, DERPY DERPY DERP, DERPTY DERPITY DERPDERP! DIRTY LIBRUL SCUM, DERPY DERPY DERP, AMEN!”

            48. lheurebleue says:

              Give it up, troll. You’re wrong on all counts, and too stupid and willfully dishonest to admit it. Radical conservatives like you are a disgusting blight on humanity. You are liars, thieves, racists, misogynists, and murderers. The sooner you all are gone the better.

            49. Alice says:

              BTW didn’t King James rewrite the Bible to suit him because he wanted to get rid of a wife and marry someone else. When the Pope told him he couldn’t do that he left out parts of the Bible and called it “The King James Version”. Have you read that piece of history too??

            50. Tammy L Nicholls says:

              It was Henry VIII that divorced his wife, Catharine of Aragon and remarried Anne Boleyn. In order to do so he had to change England from a Catholic worshiping country to Protestant (The Reformation). In 1611 King James I participated in the translation of the bible from Latin to English and that is the reason it bears his name. Your comment reminds me of a quote; “‘Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.” -Abraham Lincoln

            51. Barry52 says:

              Yes, I have read the Liberal revisionist history you are talking about and it has been debunked.

            52. Wogson says:

              I haven’t read the “Liberal revisionist history” that you speak of. Where might I find it?

            53. Stacy1467 says:

              It was King Henry VIII who wanted a divorce and separated from the Church in Rome.

            54. broke50 says:

              No, the king who wanted to get rid of a wife and marry someone else was Henry VIII. He started the Anglican church so that he could divorce his first wife. King James came after Henry.

            55. Lorenzo says:

              Please do not tell Barry52 that King James was gay not only gay but a flamboyant gay. It would break his heart. But then he has his own private history.

            56. S.R Lee says:

              LMFAO! You are a real-life intellectuall-retard. A large number of the Founding Fathers WERE either rational Theists or Deists. Both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution were written by Deists and liberals (I’ll assume you have NO idea what Jeffersonian Republicanism is). King James made himself the head of the Church of England and personally oversaw and approved his ‘version’ of the Bible, but yet he was a bisexual, murdering adulterer, so the KJV is not an authority of shite. Thomas Jefferson had his faults, but none of those you mentioned in your retarded Ad hominem diatribe. And lastly, you are as dumb as a box of rocks. Gtfo here, Christo-fascist village idiot.

            57. Carole Parsons says:

              Henry VIII was head of the Church of England, James I helped write the bible from Latin to English, so that the bible was for everyone, that could read. Yes Henry VIII was an adulterer, did execute wives never heard of him being bisexual but then again he could have been. By the way King James bible has been re-written and re-written…….. so that it is easy to understand, plus the bible would be a lot bigger if all the writings were released from the Vatican, which I would loved to read.

            58. Carole Parsons says:

              I might add I am an immigrant

            59. Barry52 says:

              Most of what was removed by the Protestants are what is called the Apocrypha. Catholics still have it in their bibles. Douay-Rheims I believe? It is also the bible that the Maryism Doctrines has its roots.

            60. Barry52 says:

              BS Any attacks on King James sexuality were written well AFTER his death when he could not defend himself. He abhorred homosexuality and warned his nephew of it. You are a liar, plain and simple.

            61. Linda Dishman Pelz says:

              You used the word ‘rube’. So apt. Heh heh – enjoyed your post very much. For future consideration, whenever I have the opportunity to use ‘rube’ I expand on it and include ‘yokels’. “Rubes and yokels’.

            62. hey momma says:

              And if the FF were liberals, there would be no second amendment.

            63. smb11 says:

              The US didn’t have a standing army funded by government at the time. Historically, some people who served in militias and in the Continental Army were armed by the government, either the Continental Congress or local governments. Some towns had their own armory. Many militia members provided their own weapons. If you read some of the discharge papers from the revolutionary war, people who had weapons provided by the government were given the option of returning their weapon to the government or purchasing the weapon.
              The Second Amendment was necessary to ensure that a “well-regulated militia” would be armed and ready for the defense of the nation, from outside invaders and from insurrectionists.

            64. Tracy Lund says:

              Derpderpderpderpderp.

            65. Diana Sinclair says:

              Please read some history. Many of the things you site in your screed were not issues in the eighteenth century. For one thing, safe abortion was unheard of in that day so it was not something people even thought of, let alone write abortion rights into the law of the land during that time. Same with health care; I hear conservatives say that if the Founders had wanted to address healthcare coverage, they would have done so; but there was NO healthcare in the 1700’s when the constitution was written. Back then, you got sick, you had the barber apply leeches to your skin to draw out ill humors; microbes, disease and health science was unknown. So again , they could not have addressed the issue. Same sex marriage probably would shock the founders, I’ll give you that. But many attitudes have changed since the constitution was written. For example, millions of people were considered to be non-human and “property” to the founders. Women were subservient half-citizens who were not treated equally under the law. I would hope that YOU are glad we didn’t stick to some of those outdated ideas into the 21st century! Saying that the Founders weren’t liberal because they didn’t embrace 21st century ideals is a lame argument. It would be like being angry that before the 2015 holiday break, our Congress didn’t address hyperspace travel laws: we don’t have interstellar space travel yet, so of course our government isn’t passing laws that don’t matter at the moment. The Founders were liberals: in an era where “conservatives” embraced The Divine Right of Kings and the old feudal ideals of class structure, these men were building a society where people could select their own leaders and vote on issues. that is a BIG move toward the left. And historically, no other nation was able to successfully pull it off for a long period until the late 19th century (France tried, but their Republic only lasted

            66. Diana Sinclair says:

              only lasted about ten years. They didn’t again until after the 1870 Franco-Prussian War.

            67. patcii says:

              Wow … A huge Palin style word salad of hate, bigotry, and ignorance.

            68. smb11 says:

              Barry52 — If your beliefs had any merit, you wouldn’t need to rewrite history or turn reality upside down on its’ head. “Proof” in history involves research and reading original sources. You haven’t done that. Your post is also devoid of logic. Issues important to a sparsely populated, agriculture dominated country would not be the same as a densely populated industrial country.

            69. Barry52 says:

              Rewrite history? What a joke you Liberals are. It is you revisionist history that has lied to our students and helped dumb down America. History isn’t even TAUGHT in schools any more because you Liberals are afraid the kids might learn the TRUTH about your Liberals who embraced slavery and started the KKK. THAT is what you Liberal vermin want covered up.

            70. smb11 says:

              Under Lincoln, the Republican Party was the Progressive party. That didn’t survive the Robber Barons. Being the opposition to Lincoln, the slave owners went to the Democratic Party.
              When Lyndon Johnson was able to get the Civil Rights Act through Congress, the Dixiecrats abandoned the Democratic Party and became Republican.
              Today’s Republican Party is not the Party of Lincoln nor is the Democratic Party the Party of the racist south.
              If you were interested in history rather than right wing propaganda, you would know this.

            71. grannieannie2 says:

              Most of all, he needs a brain. His upbringing obviously took away his brain cells.

            72. S.R Lee says:

              Ahahaha good one!

            73. MyLovelyNose says:

              Does your anus connect directly to your brain? Is that a conservative surgery, only you do it to reduce your intelligence instead of your obesity?

            74. Tracy Lund says:

              Derp, derp, drool, derp.

            75. Barry52 says:

              Please wipe, you are disgusting.

            76. Tracy Lund says:

              Please, derpy derp derp derp.

            77. davidc says:

              Racial slurs? really?

            78. Wogson says:

              Yes, really. The only reason right-wing extremists call Obama a socialist, which he clearly isn’t, is because they can’t use the term they really want to use. It starts with “n” and ends with “r” and it isn’t “nation builder”. “Liberal” or “lib-tard” are just derivations of this.

            79. Jeremy Tarone says:

              this is what a person writes when they have no reasoned argument.

            80. Barry52 says:

              Ever think about capitalizing your first word?

            81. Tracy Lund says:

              derpderpderp.

            82. Mark McCauley says:

              Ever consider a retroactive abortion?

            83. earthmom1960 says:

              And when all logic and reason fail, Barry52, resort to name calling just like bullies do in middle school. It’s really very helpful for the rest of us when bullies uncloak.

            84. MyLovelyNose says:

              That you call such a stinking piece of hatred “reason” only proves what a moron you are.

            85. Jose says:

              Barry–yer one of the ignorant she refers to.

            86. Maria Lipscomb says:

              When the debate is lost, slander is the tool of the loser! LOSER!

            87. Tracy Lund says:

              And there it is folks, all hail his derpiness in all its derpy derpitude.

            88. Alice says:

              And where did you get your knowledge Mr. Barry? She is a pastor so she must have done some awful fancy footwork to get in if she doesn’t know her Bible. Could it be, possibly, that you are the one who needs a brush up on the Gospels??

            89. Bill Wright says:

              Barry, I would be interested in your further comments. I am sure that Progressive reasoning is befuddling to you. What would you say, without resorting to name-calling that would indicate that I would be Progressive idiot or a Biblical illiterate (for the record, I am a Ruling Elder in the PCUSA). I am trying to engage you in civil conversation. You will have to be open to FACTS as I will be OPEN to FACTS..not TRUTH–FACTS. Is that a deal? Or do you not wish to have an open discussion?

            90. Barry52 says:

              Well, since Progressive reasoning has given rise to the scum of society, I have no qualms about having a open discussion with you. I understand that Liberals are in a box and long for some obscure champion of the Left to lead them to the promised land. And believe me, you being an Elder of the PCUSA means absolutely nothing to me. If I’m not mistaken, you guys have risen yourself above the Word of God and decided you want a more WORLDLY Church. So, you can fire the opening salvo.

            91. DC Harbold says:

              How can you espouse facts when you are trumpeting for a non prove able invisible daddy figure in the sky? There are no facts in your reasoning when you hide behind an imaginary dad that can beat up someone else’s dad. Grow up.

            92. John Ross says:

              Spoken like a true right wing nut. Tell me what is so idiotic about what she wrote? How is she biblically illiterate? Go ahead, I’ll wait…
              Just like every republican politician and American Christian. You want to say how everyone who truly knows God(in a way you can’t I might add) is an idiot but have nothing to back up what you say. I know you posted this some months ago, I pray you have seen the light since then. Most likely you haven’t. I will pray for you and I urge all my fellow true Christians to pray for you as well. Jesus taught us to love & care for one another, to share our bounty with those less fortunate. To care for the sick & poor. Not let
              our fellow humans go hungry, or die because they can’t afford proper healthcare.

            93. Barry52 says:

              Healthcare? lol You mean like Obama is throwing MILLIONS off healthcare because they can’t afford HIS scam? Jesus told sinners to sin no more. When homosexuals continue in their perverted, abominable ways and people like this biblically illiterate pastor and YOU support them, then you BOTH go to hell. Sorry but Jesus is NOT tolerant of sin.

            94. DC Harbold says:

              Seriously. Santa Claus. You are a child

            95. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              Y’know Barry, I have a sister just like you, who rants at the evils of her homosexual brother’s “lifestyle” just as you do. She was sexually abused from the age of two, resulting in permanent and irreversible psychological damage manifesting as religious fundamentalism, with an emphasis on a belief in her possessing a direct line to the will of God, and thus in her views about religion and science, no matter how inaccurate, always being right.
              Since you are literally mirroring her behaviour and words almost identically, I find myself wondering: what horror has warped your mind so severely that you now believe you know better than anyone else, that you have a direct line to the will of your god, and that the complete inaccuracies and misinterpretations you are spouting are incontrovertible truth? Whatever it was, it must have been every bit as severe as my poor demented sister’s experiences, and it was likely at a similarly tender age.
              Personally, I don’t care to know what that experience (or set of experiences) was. I’m not the kind to intrude into the sufferings of others for my own ghoulish curiosity, and I wouldn’t want you to divulge such a horror just to satisfy my own or another’s curiosity. But know that you have my sympathies and understanding.

            96. Barry52 says:

              Would YOU be the gay brother? If so, YOU are a homosexual and SHE was sexually abused from the age of two. I hope God blesses her and gives her strength but it sounds like the girl AND her brother was sexually abused. Sometimes abused children turn to homosexuality.

            97. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              I am that homosexual brother; and no, I was not sexually abused. Contrary to what you have been told by preachers, homosexuality is NEVER the result of sexual abuse; however, violent homophobia often is.
              Despite many and exhaustive studies on the subject, science has been able to demonstrate NO LINK WHATSOEVER between homosexuality and sexual abuse. What it has found, however, is that the pattern of homosexuality’s emergence within families is consistent with the pattern of a genetic trait. This is why science is searching for a gay gene or genes: because all of the other biological evidence strongly implies that at least one gene is (and probably several genes are) involved in defining homosexuality within an individual.
              How do I know this? I possess a medical science degree, and have kept myself abreast of the research in this field. There’s no ideology to my statements, just the scientific conclusions of cold, hard data.
              What must be remembered at all times about the Bible is that it was written by Bronze Age and Iron Age people who were not in the least scientifically literate. And even had they been, the science of their age would likely not have been able to recognise such a thing as a genetic trait. Worse, these writers lived in a harsh environment that necessitated maximum reproduction, and so were prejudiced against any form of sex that was non-reproductive.
              And so, inevitably, the Bible was written by the violently homophobic (as its commands to kill homosexual people amply demonstrate). And those who have clung to its declarations of omniscience and infallibility have thus inevitably taken the same tack, supporting and engaging in the worst kinds of abuses against gay people, and refusing to consider that possibly, just possibly, the human race has learned a few new things about biology and genetics in the last 3,500 years or so.
              Now, you may argue that it’s the Word of your god, and thus infallible. And yet, it claims that there’s “no new thing under the sun.” Explain that statement in the light of our creation and launching of interstellar probes; or for that matter, even in the light of our creation of automobiles. It’s an erroneous statement based on a we’ve-seen-all-there-is-to-see attitude, and it clearly demonstrates that neither the text nor the ideas behind it are infallible.
              Do you know, Barry52, that it was a Christian mob protesting “science falsely so-called” that burned the Great Library of Alexandria to the ground, destroying more than half a million volumes, including all of the scientific findings of Archimedes? Are you aware that during the Arabic Golden Age (9th-10th century), Middle Eastern countries basked in high science and mathematical accomplishment while Christianity dragged the West into a living hell? Are you aware that the Inquisition and Crusades conducted by Christians throughout the last thousand years or so have been responsible for the deaths of billions?
              The belief in an infallible god with an infallible holy book is nothing more than a justification to switch off one’s reason, and to discount any and all facts that one chooses to ignore because said holy book disputes them. No book can ever encompass the entirety of facts in the universe, and certainly not one written thousands of years before the defining of the scientific method by uneducated men. And claims that it can “because Jesus” (or, for that matter, “because Allah”) are both patently absurd and offensive to anyone but a blind follower of dogma.

            98. Barry52 says:

              I wasn’t told anything by preachers. I’ve heard some psychologists on TV and read a few books that say that homosexuality is SOMETIMES the result of child abuse. You have no problem in pointing out that your sister was abused so I can only assume you think because she WAS abused it has somehow caused her hard line against homosexuality. Maybe the reason she’s against your sexuality is because it is a perversion. But of course to you that is ridiculous. Your assertion that homosexuality and child abuse isn’t connected is because you are tunnel visioned into ONE lifestyle and that is the gay life so any research you do is going to be strictly biased against secular, straight studies to the contrary. STRAIGHT studies I said, not RELIGIOUS studies. So I give you MY research which says there definitely IS a link between homosexuality and child abuse. I couldn’t care less what kind of degree you have you will search out studies and viewpoints consistent with you own. It’s human nature. Did you know that pedophilia is more common to the male gay? Do you know there is an alliance called GLSEN? Say you never heard of it? Scandals involving the sexual abuse of under-age boys by homosexual priests have rocked the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time, defenders of homosexuality argue that youth organizations such as the Boy Scouts should be forced to include homosexuals among their adult leaders. Similarly, the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), a homosexual activist organization that targets schools, has spearheaded the formation of “Gay-Straight Alliances” among students. GLSEN encourages homosexual teachers–even in the youngest grades–to be open about their sexuality, as a way of providing role models to “gay” students. In addition, laws or policies banning employment discrimination based on “sexual orientation” usually make no exception for those who work with children or youth.

              Homophobia is fear of homosexuals. Believe me, I am not in the least afraid of you or anything you represent.

              Gays live on the HOPE that a gay gene can be found so they can FINALLY say “We are born gay.” You aren’t. Period.

              You are another one that relies on faulty science to back up your arguments. You completely disregard ANY science that contradicts your biased opinions. Not to worry, almost everyone of us do but I rely on the Word of God as the final Word.

              What must be remembered about the Bible is that it does NOT sugarcoat the fallen nature of mankind. Mankind as a whole are sinners and will never be perfect. God gave us rules and commandments to live by but of course we rejected them so He made a plan before the beginning of the world. And THAT was to give Himself as the Only perfect sacrifice to give mankind salvation. No Bronze Age sheepherder could come up with anything like that and if you would HONESTLY read the bible you would come to the inevitable conclusion that NO MAN could ever write the Words that the bible contains because the Words the bible contains in written form are the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, the LIVING Word. Most of the complaints you hold against Christians were carried out by Catholics and yes, there IS a difference. No new thing under the sun mainly refers to man’s fallen nature and that he will continue to do the same ole thing over and over again because since man was created and set upon the earth it was in his heart to do evil continuously, It has nothing to do with planes trains and automobiles.

              Allah and Mohammed have no place in the Christian world or the Word of God except only to remind man that they are not to follow false gods or false prophets as Allah and Mohamed.

              Reason me this. WHY does man STILL kill each other?

            99. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              Clearly, Barry52, you have been told EVERYTHING by preachers. You are clearly wilfully ignorant of the fact that every year, more and more footage is revealed of gay animals seen in flagrante delicto (that’s caught in the act of sex; it’s clear you’re not intelligent or educated enough to get the term without having it explained). You are also wilfully ignorant of the scientific method; if you were not, you would realise that ALL of the studies which claim to demonstrate a link between homosexuality and child abuse lack statistical power; Once again explaining this to combat your wilful ignorance: they are flawed in design and in fact do not prove anything, much less what they claim to prove.

              Secondly, there is NO LINK between homosexuality and paedophilia; paedophilia is a totally separate matter to homosexuality, and I can assure you, you don’t want an itemised list of what the average gay person would be prepared to do to a paedophile if only the law allowed it. Claims that there is a link come entirely out of Catholic dogma, not scientific data, and have been used to justify persecuting us since the very inception of your faith. NOT A SINGLE CREDIBLE STUDY HAS EVER FOUND A LINK BETWEEN HOMOSEXUALITY AND PAEDOPHILIA.

              Thirdly, a male paedophile who rapes male children is a RAPIST, not a gay man. Rape is not merely about sex; the fact that you don’t get that is highly disturbing, and leads me to pity anyone you take as a partner. It might surprise you to learn that the majority of male paedophiles who choose male victims live in sexually-active HETEROSEXUAL relationships. This is statistical fact, as evidenced by international crime statistics. Feel free to consult your local statistical authority to verify this (we both know you won’t, because you already think you know better than they do).
              As to the Christian churches being full of PAEDOPHILE (not homosexual) priests and pastors: that’s what happens when churches protect their reputations more than their flocks. Vile scum such as paedophiles flock to them, knowing that they’ve found a safe haven where, no matter what they do, they won’t find themselves being handed over to the authorities. And no, it isn’t just the Catholics; if you bothered to pay attention to the news, you’d realise that ALL of the major Christian churches have been busted for covering up child sexual abuse by members of their clergy, with the victims being both male and female. And many of the minor ones have been busted as well.
              Y’know, I worked as a nurse in Australia for several years, and over there, as a child protection measure, they have a specialised police check called a Working With Children check. I’m a gay man, and I was one of the first wave of people to undergo and pass such a check. The fact that I’m an openly gay man was not a problem for the authorities over there at all, despite the homophobia built into the Australian legal system.

              And why not? Because even the authorities in a homophobic country like Australia know that there is no connection between homosexuality and child abuse. And no, I wasn’t one of the first to undergo the check because I was gay; I was one of the first because I wholly agreed with the idea of it and knew that it was going to become a compulsory part of nursing, so I did it even before the code of the professional body made it mandatory.

              You claim that I rely on faulty science, cherry-picking what suits my worldview and ignoring the rest. Wrong again; my, my, you really aren’t getting me right today, are you? As a trained medical scientist I rely on studies that demonstrate statistical soundness, and if a study’s results run contrary to expectations, I like a good scientist seek further clarification from more studies. Whereas you seek clarification from the 1,900 – 3,500 year-old writings of ignorant sheepherders.

              People like you, Barry52, support organisations like Exodus, that failed group who tries to convert gay people into straight people despite the fact that not a single psychologist or psychiatrist (accredited or otherwise) has ever been able to stop a gay person from being gay. You pass over facts in favour of religiously-derived fiction and your choice to hate and fear what you don’t understand. And you DO fear us; you’re just too much of a coward and too delusional to admit it. Only someone who fears gay people would refuse to allow them anywhere near children, or would not want them to be open about who they are in front of children.

              You FEAR us being around children because you hold the delusional belief that we’ll either rape or convert them. You FEAR us telling children who and what we are, because you believe that the knowledge that some people aren’t actually heterosexual will somehow warp their little moral compasses. You FEAR society treating us as a normal and equal part of the natural world, because that means that society is not going to embrace your desires for a hateful little theocracy.
              But you can’t convert a straight person to being gay any more than you can convert a gay person to being straight, and the vast majority of gay people are not in the least interested in raping children because the vast majority of gay people are not paedophiles. And no matter what you do, more gay people are going to be born, are going to live and work near you, and are going to fight to be an equal part of the society that you believe only belongs to straight little homophobes like you.
              So Barry52, wake up to yourself and stop being such a hateful, wilfully-ignorant, fanatical little troll. Stamping your feet like a petulant child and spouting dogma that does not meet even the lowest test of credibility much less the higher standard of scientific fact while demanding that everyone hate the same people you do does not earn you respect; it earns you contempt. And it brings upon your head the same level of hatred and loathing you feel towards gay people, with the significant difference that in your case, this hatred and loathing is justified.

            100. Barry52 says:

              Gay animals?? So, you align and compare yourself with brute beasts? Maybe that is why in Leviticus where God calls homosexuality an abomination He also lists beasts. You are both vile and disgusting And you say I am willfully ignorant? lol I will not be lectured to by a hate filled bigoted homosexual that clearly is so biased toward Christians. You are no better then those you refer to as stupid and evil. Ask yourself this. How did I know YOU were the brother of the sister you say was abused? It’s because of your narcissism and complete disregard of any one else’s opinions except for gay “scholars” and scientists. So go cry me a river. I have no use for your opinions.

            101. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              And so at the last, you stand unmasked for the hateful bigot that you are; a man who resorts to insults in lieu of intelligent conversation, who labels others as vile and disgusting simply because they are different, and who believes that the true bigots are those who stand up to the bigotry that they and their ilk foist upon their chosen targets.
              Am I a bigot, Barry52? No, not at all; a bigot holds their views despite ample evidence to the contrary, and has no basis for such views except what they’ve been told. Am I biased against right-wing Christians and Christianity? Hell yes; hard not to be when members of that group chase you down the street intent on killing or seriously injuring you, yelling all the while that you’re an abomination to their god.
              As to narcissism; hardly. It isn’t narcissistic to be a scientifically-literate person who has done their research, and who has viewed ALL the evidence from ALL parties and weighed it according to its statistical (and thereby its scientific) merit.
              However, it is narcissistic to claim that a medical scientist doesn’t know the science of the subject they study, and to do so simply because the conclusions they reach on the basis of the evidence is in contrast to your own uneducated and scientifically-illiterate opinion (which is the ground state of anyone not educated in the appropriate science to at least undergraduate degree level).
              You claim that I am hate-filled, and yet it is YOU that calls ME vile and disgusting: words which aren’t even shy about the hate that they express. I merely referred to you as wilfully ignorant; not words of hate at all, but rather an honest description of a man who reveals both the lack of an education in the subject and a lack of any desire to get one.
              And once again, rather than referring to solid evidence from scientific sources to support your claims, you justify your words with references to the Bible, citing this as an absolute authority against which there is no argument. Which it is not; as the myriad of other, non-Abrahamic world religions clearly demonstrates.
              As to comparing myself with brute beasts: I’m a medical scientist, and as such know full well that humans are just another kind of mammal. And so the same biological traits that occur in other mammals are also going to occur in humans, plain and simple. It’s the philosophies of some religions (most notably the Abrahamic ones) that make a distinction between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom, not science: I stand on the side of science. And so I am able to understand and accept that just as you have other gay mammals, you’re going to have gay humans, because we’re just one more type of mammal.
              So far, Barry52, you have claimed superior knowledge (without evidence) on theology over theology scholars, and superior scientific knowledge (without evidence) over a medical scientist who specifically studies the area in which you’re airing your opinions, which you wholly demonstrate are founded on nothing more than your own interpretation of your religion’s holy text (which does not agree with its interpretation by many Bible scholars, including at least one who’s tried to guide you to the light). The only viable conclusion that can be reached from these facts is that it is you, and not myself or the Bible scholar, that is suffused with narcissism and complete disregard of anyone else’s opinions but those held by yourself and similarly-biased pseudo-scholars.
              And so, Barry52, having done my absolute best to try and shine at least some light into such a wilfully-darkened cranium, I leave you to stew in your own wilful ignorance, and in the cruelty and vileness your heart nurtures in the name of religious zeal and devotion. May we be favoured to never cross paths again.

            102. Barry52 says:

              All I can leave you with is this. For a man to turn down a woman over another man is sickening. Perverted. You can take your pseudo science and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

            103. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              Unsurprisingly, you just have to have the last word; and unsurprisingly, it’s crude, insulting, inaccurate and above all pathetic. Now kindly be a good little troll, and return to that warm, cosy spot beneath your bridge; I’m quite sure no-one here will miss your departure.

            104. Barry52 says:

              lol How quaint. It is your narcissist and arrogant pride that draws YOU to have the last word and after this you can have it. You are a LIAR when you say that I am inaccurate in saying it is a disgusting perversion that draws you to men over women because as the facts attest, there IS no gay gene so you were not born gay. You are the pathetic creature that twists and tortures science into YOUR arrogant point of view. I am no troll. I am here to to bring you Liberal idiots into a different set of opinions that you would normally stop your ears against. Here I can either be banned, which wouldn’t surprise me, or you have to read my opinions. lol

            105. John Ross says:

              I see you have not seen the light. Thank you for telling us all what is on The Lord’s mind. And I thought only God decided who goes to hell. Bottom line is: if you have hate in your heart, you are not following Christ. Did Jesus make the blind man pay him? No. He rubbed his eyes with mud, and he was healed. You do not know the Bible.
              But on an American note, the problem with our country right now has nothing to do with Obamacare, gay marriage, gun control or even abortion. The problem rests with all of us citizens. We bicker back and forth like this, anonymously over the internet about our beliefs. Our country was founded to be a melting pot. Not only of people & cultures, but of ideas. We vote politicians into office not based on the job they’ve done, but by the beliefs we claim they share. We must start to hold our elected officials accountable for the job they do, or don’t do. Our country is at a stalemate in which neither side wants to give in. Even if it’s for the better of our country. It is in the people’s best interest that all citizens have access to quality, affordable healthcare. It is in the people’s best interest that all citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And what makes one person happy my repulse another, but, if it doesn’t stop you pursuit of life, liberty & happiness, then it doesn’t affect you. We used to be the greatest country in the world. But because of our bickering amongst ourselves, and not holding elected officials accountable… we are no longer the great country we once were. I myself have been just as guilty as you “Barry”, hating everything that comes out of a conservatives mouth and dismissing them as idiots. Hell, I did it just a few days ago. Tolerance of each other is what our country needs now. And Jesus taught us to be tolerant. Now with that being said, I’m dropping the Mic. If you choose to continue arguing your points, feel free. I will not participate however. It’s not wise to argue with a fool, onlookers can’t tell the difference. Peace be with, peace be with us all.

            106. Alicia Simpson says:

              Why do the most unreasonable people always say that others are without reason?

            107. Barbara Zilz says:

              Haters gonna hate….. move on folks, nothing to see here.

            108. melanie says:

              This “professor” is a preacher, who not only preaches God’s Word in two churches, but also teaches. You reveal your own ignorance by calling her names, instead of putting forth a coherent argument in order to attempt to get your misguided point across. Perhaps you should begin studying your Bible, concentrating on the New Testament, which repeatedly reminds it’s readers that our God commands us to love Him above all, to love your neighbor and help the poor and downtrodden, to love the stranger in your midst, regardless of their religion, and most importantly, to judge not, lest you be judged, as ALL judgement is God’s right and not ours. I worship God and Jesus, not a human and your suggestion otherwise only shows that you are filled with hatred and vitriol. While the liberals of this country are endeavoring to improve the lives of millions of Americans through affordable healthcare for all, establishing a living wage which will improve our economy and help lower the need for government assistance for those less fortunate, protect the rights of women to control their own bodies (how would you like it if everyone said that men who suffer from erectile dysfunction are going against God’s will-after all, a man’s inability to perform sexually MUST be what our Creator intended by your own reasoning, therefore Viagra, Cialis, and the multitude of other drugs designed to restore libido are defying the will of God and should be outlawed), stop subsidizing big banks, giving out corporate welfare to multi million dollar businesses, stop subsidizing big oil companies who are posting record profits and paying their CEOs obscene bonuses, allowing billionaires to avoid paying fair tax rates, and threatening to murder (by “carpet bombing” a war crime by any definition as it would kill innocent women, children, and the elderly) any human who does not share the same religious beliefs of pseudo Christians like yourself. Your version of Christianity is completely at odds with the message in the Bible. Love, acceptance, compassion, and selflessness is paramount and hatred, racism, bigotry, misogyny, and outright greed are the very thing our Savior railed against. Your offensive words above do nothing but highlight everything that is wrong with not only our elective process, but also with America and the rabid hatemongers preaching the Devil’s words.

            109. Barry52 says:

              I really don’t care what this so-called “preacher” is. The Leftist Liberals are killing this country. Homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, people who won’t work but demand benefits they do not deserve etc. etc etc. are all prophesied and NOT in a good light. You can argue your talking points until you are blue in the face. I don’t care. Perhaps you should study your bible and concentrate on the Book of Jude. Or maybe the first chapter of Romans. Or Revelation where the Lord Jesus returns with complete authority and judgement to send the final unrepentant to the lake of fire. You probably don’t believe in that though, do you? But even THEN the heathen will rage and gnash their teeth at Him. Now to completely shock you on a few things. I agree with you on some of the issues you have brought up. But, AFFORDABLE healthcare? Give me a break. You mean healthcare with a gun to your head if you don’t pay the sky high premiums. And the only reason for that is to partly pay for the scum that will NOT work. So yes, the TRULY dependent and disabled? Of course as Christians we are to be charitable and help any way we can. Taxes are one way but in all your “higher” intelligence as a Liberal you know good and well taxes mostly go where they are least needed. The rich mans pockets. That is why Jesus said you will always have the poor with you. No amount of legislation will eliminate poverty. Lyndon Johnson proved that. People are STILL in poverty in the Appalachians and in the inner cities. You CAN’T throw money at that kind of problem and expect it to go away. Of course most of the rich are corrupt but what of it? Do you tax the HONEST rich people to death because of the corrupt rich? When was the last time a poor man gave you a job, if you have one? It seems they are a necessary evil and if someone like the communist Bernie Sanders gets elected the RICH people will pack their bags and go elsewhere. THEN what? Are YOU going to pay for everyone’s healthcare? I very seriously doubt it.

              And as far as our enemies go? Kill every one of them with any means necessary. You can’t NICE an ISIS savage. Grow up. Oh, and one little thing you Liberal feminists always get wrong about the Bible. The Bible tells the husband to love his ONE WIFE with the same kind of love that the Savior showed, that is be willing to die for her. NOWHERE does it say a man should die for his HUSBAND. Now, grow up. And you are probably a misandrist I would be willing to guess. Especially if they DARE to try to talk a woman out of killing her baby.

            110. Skylab99 says:

              Funny how the “love it or leave it” crowd claim to love America but hate Americans.

          6. larryelf says:

            No. Stay. Hope and change.

          7. MyLovelyNose says:

            Did you get out of bed determined to be a pig-headed boor?

          8. Tracy Lund says:

            And the derp du jour award goes to Barry52 for being a sophomoric dick.

          9. Sydney Chandler says:

            You don’t get to tell people to ‘leave’ because they voice their feeling about where they live. And she is absolutely correct about NC.

          10. Skylab99 says:

            No Barry – it is your turn to leave and find some hole to live in with the rest of your Biblical “scholars” and constitutional professors. I am damned sick and tired of people like you who think they are “real” Americans lowering the bar for this country and forcing the rest of us to know tow to your idiocy. Please leave. If you can find a country that will have you.

        2. Hobartcat says:

          NC would be a blue state were it not for gerrymandering. Read: NC would be a blue state if the repugs hadn’t stacked the deck in their own favor. Read: NC would be a blue state if the repugs weren’t dishonest cowards afraid what the citizenry actually thinks.

          1. larryelf says:

            I live in New Mexico. If you look at the red/blue map, we are the blue island, so far from heaven, so close to Texas. I love living in a redneck liberal state. Who would thunks!

      2. hey momma says:

        I have lived in North Carolina for 28 years, near Raleigh. Your daughter could live next door to me and would hear no coercion or bullying tactics. Please believe, not all of us here are mean and nasty.

    5. doubt'n T says:

      Happy to be the 100th up-vote! In complete agreement! Well said, pastor!

    6. listtowardslight says:

      As someone who spent the first twenty years of my life in the church reading the Bible cover to cover multiple times and went atheist, I say this. Exactly this. If I had chosen to remain christian, I’d hope to be like Melanie.

      1. Barry52 says:

        As someone who has spent the last ALMOST twenty years as a Believer and Christian I can say that reading the Bible from cover to cover multiple times without faith does not a Christian make. No more that reading a book on auto mechanics without understanding makes me Mr. Goodwrench.

        1. earthmom1960 says:

          It’s for God to judge. He commands it in His book, as I’m sure you’ve read. He decides in the end and I’ll wait to see what He has to say about my life and my choices. As we all do. And I disagree, if I read enough about auto mechanics I will learn to become a mechanic. Possibly if one reads the Bible enough one learns His word as well. Again, judge not the understanding that is put forth, it’s not our place to do so.
          You may disagree and that’s fine. It’s just what I’ve gathered from my cover to cover reading of the Good Book with my liberal view which God has seen fit to provide for me.

          1. Barry52 says:

            You will become a mechanic if you STUDY to become a mechanic. If you just read it to read it you will not.

            It takes FAITH to believe and to understand and no amount of reading will lead you to understand His Word. And that faith does not come from us nor is it lying benign inside us until God decides to awaken it. Where does that faith come from?

            Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            And it is up to Christians to also judge because f we judge not how are we to know what is good or bad? If we say an repentant sinner will go to hell it is because God has already said so.

            1. Saltydog says:

              Re “And it is up to Christians to also judge because [if] we judge not how are we to know what is good or bad?” I don’t know, when you have some free time in your crusade to stone women who seek to control their own bodies, take up the question with Jesus (“Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her”).

            2. Barry52 says:

              And it is a sin for any woman to murder a otherwise healthy baby just for birth control measures. You are so biblically illiterate it is hilarious. You evidently do not believe in God so I have no problem telling you that you are nothing but a fool, God say so. I am NOT calling for stoning but I am calling for the cease of murder that slaughters the unborn child just because it may be inconvenient for some woman that is too stupid to use birth control.

            3. Saltydog says:

              Here we have anti-choice compassion: women who are raped should be forced to support any resulting pregnancy… because if they weren’t stupid they’d have used birth control before the rape. This is the state of anti-choice Christianism.

            4. Barry52 says:

              Another straw man argument. Typical Liberal tactic. I did not say anything about rape, although since YOU brought it up, there IS adoption available.

              I said using abortion as a birth control option because the man AND the woman were too stupid to use birth control before their night of fun.

            5. Saltydog says:

              Barry52 seems to be quite strung out, I’m afraid. Here he is saying that my mention of rape in the context of abortion is making a straw man argument, since he implies it suggests falsely that he was denying raped women the option of abortion.

              Then he immediately insinuates that women who are raped must bring any resulting fetus to term, presumably even risking death to do so.

              Sooo, he’s both denying and asserting the same belief at the same time. Barry52 is a remarkable case.

            6. Barry52 says:

              Now you’re flat out lying. I did not mention rape, YOU did. And it IS a straw man because I wasn’t even thinking of rape in our back and forth.

              And another straw man. I did NOT mention the risk of death to the woman in the argument, YOU just brought that up. And, I did NOT say a raped woman should be FORCED to bring the baby to term, I only mentioned there were options, such as adoption.

              Liberal arrogance and Lunacy, straight from ole Saltydog.

              No, what is really burning your knickers is that I am saying that a woman who will use abortion as a BIRTH CONTROL measure on an otherwise healthy, viable baby is doing nothing short of committing murder and YOU are an accomplice for supporting it. Now, is THAT plain enough for you? Or do you want me to draw you a picture?

            7. Kristine Rowland says:

              What greater nonsense than this concept of abortion as ‘convenience’. Absolute BS. Find a woman who has stated that she had a ‘convenient’ abortion. There’s not a woman in the world who has had an abortion just for the convenience of it. Let the zealots and misogynists such as yourself make laws prohibiting abortion. Let Christians lead the efforts to provide sex education, contraception, child care, maternity leave, and the many other women’s health and rights issues that should be sponsored by Christians, not sabotaged. Make those things happen and abortion will become rare as hen’s teeth.

            8. Barry52 says:

              Another lying, clueless Liberal. If conventional birth control doesn’t work, then abortion is used. And the very FACT of abortion is getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy, is it not? THAT IS BIRTH CONTROL. You Liberals can paint it any color you want, it is still murder. And your misandrist tendencies are shining brightly.

            9. earthmom1960 says:

              You know, friend, if you don’t believe in abortion please do not get one. And until you walk in the shoes of someone who has had to face that choice, please refrain from proclaiming to know their heart. You speak as if you know and understand everyone at all times and fully comprehend the enormity of their lives. You don’t. It’s just that simple, you don’t. Worry about the smote in your eye.

            10. Barry52 says:

              Nah, that don’t work. That’s like saying don’t judge a murderer until you commit murder. When it has been drummed into the head of a woman that her unborn child is nothing but a handful of cells or nothing but a faceless blob called a zygote, or nothing but a parasite there is no wonder she doesn’t have feelings for her child. Not until you so called “pro-choice” activists quit telling her it’s ok to kill her child will I be quite. Nice try for the high road. You didn’t quite make it and are still in the gutter. And, it’s mote, not smote.

            11. earthmom1960 says:

              Well Barry, I realize we will never see eye-to-eye, mote free or otherwise. I, however, do try to be civil and decent to everyone I meet, online or in person. And so, here we are interacting on a message board together. And I do appreciate your efforts in civilized discourse because without that we (and the larger world beyond just us) will never fully connect, understand, or tolerate one another.
              I understand what you are saying, but if that’s the case – women hear the message that it’s okay to have an abortion and so they run out and get one whenever they are faced with an unintended pregnancy, then why isn’t the abortion problem worse than what it is? I mean, really, just a small percentage of women get abortions but almost all women hear pro-choice messages from the time they are very young. So, why isn’t it a more widely practiced procedure? And why, based on “it’s okay to kill her child” way of thinking is this practice not celebrated in any way? I’ve never heard of a group of women who have had abortions getting together and celebrating their choice. I’m really not fooling around, I am really and honestly posing these questions for serious thought.

            12. Joan Diamond says:

              Barry, please go soak your head. You sound totally irrational. You pick and choose the parts of the bible that make you feel superior and ignore the parts that tell you to be meek, to not judge others, to show love. You are a walking example of what the anti-Christ does when he gets hold of an ignorant fool who is more interested in being right than being Christian. You are so irrational that you are starting to rave. Go and read your Bible and try to stop putting your own interpretation into it. You are a sad, sad, broken, damaged, and cruel creature. My husband, RIP, used to say that a lot of these Bible thumpers are in for a rude awakening if there is an afterlife and a Heaven and Hell. As you judge, so shall you be judged.

            13. Karen Phillips says:

              Did you really just say “that don’t work” and then go on to correct the spelling of earthmom’s entry? Ok, I’m done messing with you now. But it would be great if you could at least apologize to the folks you have criticized for their writing blunders, seeing as how you are making countless errors of your own.

            14. Jean Butler says:

              Do you have a uterus? Then you don’t get a vote on the issue.

            15. Barry52 says:

              I don’t have a uterus but I have something you evidently don’t. A heart.

            16. grannieannie2 says:

              Really, you actually have a heart? I don’t believe you do or if you do, it’s turned toxic on you!

            17. Barry52 says:

              You tell me how someone with a heart can kill a baby? And don’t give me that crap about think of the woman’s feelings. I hate to burst your bubble but it’s not all about how the woman feels. You cold hearted Liberals couldn’t care less how the baby wants to live.

            18. Sydney Chandler says:

              No you don’t. You have, however, hijacked this thread with your religious bullshit. I don’t suffer fools so I’ll leave this thread and good riddance to you.

            19. Kristine Rowland says:

              “I have no problem telling you that you are nothing but a fool”

              But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’
              will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
              -Jesus the Christ; Matthew 5:22

            20. Barry52 says:

              yawnnn…

              Psalm 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

            21. Kristine Rowland says:

              King David was a great man. But I follow Christ, so I will defer to Him in matters of faith and how to treat others.

            22. Barry52 says:

              Christ is the One Who called atheists fools. The Word of God became flesh, and dwelled among men. The Word is Christ. All scripture came from God.

            23. grannieannie2 says:

              He who will not learn is doubly ignorant.

            24. Karen Phillips says:

              Bravo, Barry! No mistakes! You must have copied and pasted this one.

            25. grannieannie2 says:

              I think you might be interested in returning to Grade School so that you can learn a modicum of good grammar. I don’t have the time nor the desire to educate you, so as far as I’m concerned, you can roast in your grammatical ignorance to add to your general ignorance as to god’s love or god’s hate.

            26. Barry52 says:

              I quoted a verse from the bible, a book you have evidently never read. Oh my gosh, this is rich. You actually think those are MY words? lol…lol You Holier Than Thou Liberals are nothing but a joke, and a bad one at that. lol I can’t stop laughing,,,lol

            27. Karen Phillips says:

              God say so? And I would also like you to cite the bible verse (correctly, please) that calls for a woman to use birth control. I’m no expert, but I’ve heard that men have means of birth control available to them too.

            28. earthmom1960 says:

              You now proclaim to know what is in my heart while I read? And believe you know me and my soul’s fate from a message board on the internet? Oh my, you are sad case.

            29. Barry52 says:

              It’s called human nature. No one is any different than anyone else. What is in the human heart? Jesus said it best…

              Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

            30. Amhairghen Faithliaig says:

              Point 1). “No-one is any different to anyone else.”
              Incorrect; consult any psychologist or psychiatrist, and they’ll tell you in plain language that sociopaths are different from the rest of us. Ergo, human nature does not mean that we are all the same.

            31. Barry52 says:

              Your so-called point 3 makes every other “point” you THINK you make irrelevant. I quote Words from the Written Word of God. EVERY scripture is God breathed and written down by man.

              2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

              ALL scripture means from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21

              In your pride and arrogance,you lose. Next.

            32. grannieannie2 says:

              Barry52, spoken like a true hater. Where did you learn to hate so much? At your mother’s breast, or at church?

            33. MyLovelyNose says:

              And think about how sinful gay people are! A LOT.

            34. Karen Phillips says:

              Tsk tsk, Barry. Spell check your entries, please!

            35. Sydney Chandler says:

              Whomever indoctrinated you did a bang up job. If you believe what you are saying you will believe anything.

          2. Saltydog says:

            Well, Barry52 is in direct communication with God, and so can judge in his stead. Barry52 knows that God wants women who have been raped to suck it up and bring any resulting fetus to birth. He knows that God hates “liberals” who want to take care of the poor–because Barry52 knows that Jesus is only the idiot son of God, not really God.

            If Barry52’s talks with God have provided Barry with his notions of biology (certainly biologists aren’t responsible for his notions), then it may be that God is alarmingly ignorant about science. Then again, Barry52 is probably satisfied to tell God he’s and idiot if Barry52 finds God scoffing at his pseudo-scientific biology.

          3. Kristine Rowland says:

            “It’s for God to judge. He commands it in His book, as I’m sure you’ve
            read. He decides in the end and I’ll wait to see what He has to say
            about my life and my choices.”

            I’m sure God will say “I’m sorry for the way you were treated by those who professed to love me, but could not love you. Welcome home.” At least that’s what I would say, and I believe God loves you with an intensity I can’t come close to. <3

            1. earthmom1960 says:

              Bless you, Kristine. You made my day!

            2. Kristine Rowland says:

              Aww…that’s awesome. Bless you too! *hugs* <3

            3. grannieannie2 says:

              And mine as well, earthmom1960. It’s so pleasant to read about love and caring rather than hate and non-caring.

        2. listtowardslight says:

          You, sir, are more presumptuous than words could express. I grew up a true believer, and it was my reason to be alive until I had to see that for a fraud. But, having sacrificed the community and family members inside that church, I am already familiar with the cult tactic of saying that anyone who left “didn’t really believe”. It’s willfully blind.

          1. Barry52 says:

            You grew up a true believer? Then this should interest you.

            James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

            It takes MORE than belief sir.

            1. listtowardslight says:

              I’m pretty sure that if a higher power thought our belief was important, its messengers wouldn’t just take shots in the dark at other people’s life-stories and wildly miss. Watching con-artists get away with so much in the churches was very telling.

              I know this sounds harsh, but wasting years of people’s lives on guilt trips and covering their abusers’ asses is horrible. Having no other tactic than to call people bad for not playing along with a sham points to your own insecurity.

            2. Barry52 says:

              You missed the point entirely. You say you grew up in the church and was a ardent believer. Well sir, the devil believes. Were you ever convicted by the Holy Spirit and repented of your sins? Don’t try to throw you now unbelief on anyone else. God won’t hold anyone accountable for you but yourself.

            3. grannieannie2 says:

              I’m feeling sorrier and sorrier for poor misguided Barry52. What a waste of a human brain!

            4. MyLovelyNose says:

              The Devil is SO . . . . ssssshexy, isn’t he, barry? That big muscular red-skinned grinning DEMON with the FORKED TAIL whipping and writhing and twisting . . . and his SMELL, so MASCULINE . . . Ssssssatan!

            5. Karen Phillips says:

              Your spelling and grammar are positively crappy.

            6. MyLovelyNose says:

              It takes cold water baths and tons of time on your knees–no, wait, not on your KNEES, that’s what gay people do when they put their soft wet sinful nasty mouths on the sexytime parts of another gay person . . . OOH.

              Barry, can’t you just IMAGINE what that’s like?

        3. Karen Phillips says:

          “No more than (not that) reading a book… Just a little nudge since you’ve critiqued the writing of others. Can you handle it?

      2. grannieannie2 says:

        listtowardslight – exactly! I’m 86 and I’m so very happy that I gave up the religious and political beliefs of my parents and most family members as well as their racism and hatred of those who don’t look like, talk like, have the same sexual orientation as them, worship like them and in general be exactly like them . I’ve traveled widely and I’m so glad to have met and learned from so many people who aren’t exactly like me.

  30. Carol Topalian says:

    Good Melanie. Anger for the right reasons is a relief to many, like rain in the desert. Stay strong, and fueled with love and inner peace.

  31. James Witt says:

    I agree with everything except 10. It is all opinion and not fact! The recent uproar over the flag was a media creation. Until the church massacre and the race baiting media proliferation of one sided propaganda almost no one was talking or complaining about the flag. Suddenly everyone was inflamed for or against the flag…some on each side were sincere…many on both sides were not!

    1. mjhoop says:

      Until some people started attaching flags to their vehicles–usually,ut not always, pickups– and making a big point of it and what it stands for, it was un- important to most of us. But timing is everything and to see it in our faces while americans were being murdered wholesale for being the “wrong ” color or culture or some other dratted thing, well that was too much and too evident the meaning. It was not a media creation.

      1. Carol B says:

        Maybe not a media creation but also the furor wasn’t the answer. It was a circus everyone attended for a few days..some old flags got taken down..people on both sides got mad..now…back to business as usual. My opinion is that the NRA loves these arguments..it gets the heat off them.

  32. NotTheMama says:

    Yes! On all points! Thank you! I’m not Christian, but I am a person of faith and I thank you so much for your post!

  33. Bob Estepp says:

    Amen!

  34. Holly Baby Catkiss says:

    I agree with all she said except I’m for the 2nd Amendment. Why? Because my family and friends have a right to own guns to protect themselves from criminals. In fact, my mom told me that a drug dealer used to live next door to use and there was always traffic there. One day, some of our windows got shot out. Now imagine if some criminal was to rob us or Gods know what! Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. A gun can’t do anything unless there is a finger on the trigger. It is an individual choice to own guns. I’m not a gun person myself and I can’t own a gun because of my mental disability (which sucks), but at least I can own all the knives and swords I want! Lol. Knives, swords, hammers, chainsaws don’t kill people. It’s the person controlling them that has full responsibility. My ex boyfriend Alex brought a gun (I helped) and had it out around the house. Even though it was out in the open did I go out and shoot someone just for the fuck of it? Nope, but if someone broke into our then apartment hell yeah. Anyway, he ended up pawning the gun. We needed money.

    1. Lyndia says:

      I feel the same way you do. I have two guns and will use them when necessary. I had to pull a gun 3 times. Once I used it, subsequently, saving my life. The other two times, I scared the s o b away.

  35. BishopAndrewGeralesGentry says:

    Self loathing Southerners are as sickening as hypocritical and condescending Northerners. Let us be historical correct if not politically correct, the flag of the United States flew over slavery longer than the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Slaves that were freed by the British were re-enslaved by the new United States as a prerequisite to the signing of the Treaty of Paris that ended the first American civil war. No, Northern colonies now independent states did not object to this! Lincoln was not oppose to slavery if it preserved the Union and he said so on many occasions. SO in reality it was as it is now a matter of who owns capital and who has the right to use said capital even if that capital is human beings! The United States was not founded on religious freedom , freedom of expression or self determination and if you doubt that just ask the enumerable Native Nations that were destroyed in the greatest genocide in the history of the world! Remember too that the “Tea Party Republicans” began in the ever liberal inclusive and welcoming North! American Christianity be it so called evangelical or progressive is a counterfeit religion that bears no resemblance to the Gospel of Jesus and or his Lordship!

  36. disqus_sEj4MjqOS1 says:

    Absolutely lovely. I agree with you so much….I live in the cultural South also, and have felt the way you do for YEARS AND YEARS. Thank you – preach it!!! Preach it every day, every where!

  37. krazykingkush says:

    Bravo to you miss! Finally some sensible words from a southern Republican. All the best!

    1. Alice Lindsley says:

      She’s a Southern Democrat.

  38. Karen Heyou says:

    Thank you for speaking your Truth. The world needs more people like you speaking up to drown out the hate.

  39. 7sue7 says:

    I feel the same way. I am a Christian on the left as well. The entire New Testament can be summed up with one word: LOVE. I have never read anywhere in it that you have to be a Republican to be a Christian and yet this is what many evangelical Christians believe. Why? Because the Christian Coalition (which gives direction to churches) is ran by the GOP. So they run on their agenda. What ever happened to running the church agenda based on the teachings of Christ?

  40. Carmen Fierro Gonzales says:

    We need more people like you in this world
    You’re thinking is right on point

  41. Lisa Milakovich says:

    As a Pagan living in the bible belt I feel like I notice people’s behavior more than most. And in my area there a re a whole lot of mean spirited Christians that are judgmental and full of hatred. I am not a Christian, but I feel as though I am more closely aligned with Christ than a lot of the Christians around here! I believe that if you have less than a million dollars in the bank you have no right voting Republican in this day and age.
    You go girl! Speak your mind and keep on telling the real truth!

    1. 1968_Camaro says:

      I know many Pagans who act more Christ like than so many so-called “Christians”. Blessed Be!

    2. mjhoop says:

      I lie in the Bible Belt and know some Christians whom I value as friends. We just don’t talk politics. Religion and politics used to not mix, and i hope we’ll have those days again. We will, unless the Dominionists take over, as they are busy trying to do.

  42. Richard McWolff says:

    You are wonderful. Thank you so much for posting this. Reading it gives me much hope for our Southern brothers and sisters (I’m originally from little Bradenton, Florida, I know folks don’t think of Florida as a Southern state, not really but tell that to my Grandma and she’d tell ya differently! lol Keep an open heart and an open mind and the truth WILL always set you free. Peace!

  43. Alan Ray says:

    Well said, Melanie. There is no such thing as a Christian Conservative.

    1. v2787 says:

      There’s no such thing as a mentally healthy conservative. They don’t exist.

      1. 1968_Camaro says:

        Conservatism is not compatible with genuine Christianity. I think Melanie put things VERY WELL.

  44. Leo Brown says:

    Love everything about this article. Thank you miss Tubbs.

  45. Sue CQ says:

    Perfectly put. Amen.

  46. Geeky Girl says:

    I’m an Atheist, I don’t even get how anyone can actually be a “left” Christian. Its pretty much an oxymoron. In order to do so you have to violate 99% of what the bible says. If you have to do that why even be “Christian”. Because Jesus? He didn’t even know that washing your hand was a good thing. How could he be a god? He most likely never even existed anyway. Why base your life around imaginary characters in a book? Why even hold onto this dependence on fairy tales? Why keep looking to a book that is morally flawed from cover to cover. Christians have got wrong morality questions over and over and over. You don’t need imaginary friends, false gods and fairy tales to teach love and kindness. It takes a special kind of delusional mind to be a “left” Christian. I just don’t get it.

    1. Alice Lindsley says:

      I know you don’t……

  47. Gloria Christie says:

    I can see how the Methodist organization would be alarmed at Melanie’s post. I grew up Methodist and was engaged to a Methodist minister. It wasn’t until this latter experience that I learned how Methodism has clung to the status quo. And what a shame, because when one is frozen in fear of change, that is when death begins to occur. Beautifully written, superb logic.

  48. Aaron says:

    well said

  49. Sandra says:

    I think that many people who are also hiding their true feelings because they feel they are alone would be grateful if real Christians like this pastor spoke out more. Biting one’s tongue just allows the further perverting and hijacking of the religion for those who obviously do not practice Christianity.

  50. Maggie Jones says:

    Thank you, Melanie Tubbs. I agree with every single thing you have written. About time a sane Christian steps up.

  51. Two thumbs up, four if I am allowed to use my feet 🙂

  52. MT Allen says:

    MT Allen As a southerner and Christian I agree with most of that. I don’t dare put up a sign for Bernie lol. Loved the ‘yellow dog’ example. I disagreed with what she said in #9 because the Bible states clearly that God did not approve of polygamy in the OT, as a pastor she should have known that.. it’s common knowledge, but it was a good article overall.

  53. Fire Works says:

    THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU SISTER. I grew up in Arkansas as well but no longer live there. I’m now retired and tried to move back to enjoy the natural beauty of our state. After spending six weeks in rural Arkansas near my sister’s where I was going to buy their old house, I realized I can’t. I loved the peace and beauty God has blessed us with but the people and their attitudes…. I just couldn’t. I would be so out of place. My three dogs loved it, running free and discovering nature in all it’s glory, something they could never do before. We are back in Houston, Texas (which is no better for the people’s attitudes) and wondering, “Now what?” Panama maybe. Mexico maybe. Somewhere. I don’t know but enough is enough. I too have had it with the violence. I try for the strength and courage of Daniel for I am in the Lion’s Den and it is called America. Namaste.

    1. Karen Parsons says:

      Canada. Just saying.

    2. 1968_Camaro says:

      How about beautiful Massachusetts? New England is absolutely gorgeous and has diversity in its landscape. You have mountains to the north and west, and beautiful beaches along the coasts of Maine, New Hampshire, MA, Rhode Island and Connecticut. We do have beaches for the dogs to enjoy too! And plenty of dog parks (or as they say in the eastern paht of the state, dog PAHKS). We would love to have you here in New England!

      1. mjhoop says:

        I’d be there, 1968, but my southern house wouldn’t bring enough to buy a Mass. house –and it snows up there, which my arthritis doesn’t like. But otherwise, Fire Works would be fortunate to live in some parts of Mass. Although my sister always tried to avoid Holyoke, so there are still some social issues…..

        The coast of Maine had a lot going for it and Portland was a great city when i lived in Maine. Last time i looked, Brunswick was still live-able.

        Arkansas was once my home, but the tarantulas, cottonmouths, ice storms, tornadoes, etc terrorized me. New England is so much calmer.

        But i also think about which country from here. Most places expect you to learn their language. The one blessing, if my language skills are sub-par, I won’t have to hear or read about politics!

        Never thought of the US as the Lion’s Den, but that puts it about right.

        1. 1968_Camaro says:

          Safe travels to you, no matter where you go. 🙂

  54. Lyle M Miller Sr says:

    Sorry, I disagree with you analysis of the conservative right. I am not intolerant, but I believe that we need to live up to the teachings of Scripture, especially those of Jesus who was as far as my understanding takes me was both liberal and conservative, which I believe puts him in the middle, which too many on either end of the spectrum fail to acknowledge

  55. Cristine Bolley says:

    Switching political teams is difficult, but the lukewarm middle is not a favored biblical stance either. I appreciate the clarity spoken in this article that builds courage for those of us who are have been newly identfied with the Christian left.

  56. raygsanders01 says:

    Ms. Tubbs can let Jesus protect her home and family but I prefer Smith and Wesson to protect mine. I refuse to let your naivety take away my right to protect my family.

    1. wingr47 says:

      How many “enemies” you got Dude?

      1. raygsanders01 says:

        It is better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it. Burglars don’t have to be your enemy to be a threat to you. They carry weapons to protect themselves in case they are caught in the act. They don’t respond well to prayers.

  57. wingr47 says:

    Bigots are NOT Christians. True Christians do not judge others and all bigots do is judge others. STOP letting those with personal agendas do your thinking for you. Doesn’t the Bible say the Anti-Christ will not come as a demon but as one of Us? A Man/Woman who says they are for YOU and will make everything go your way if only they had all the power.

    1. jimv1983 says:

      It’s actually those people that are true Christians. The bible is full of hate and bigotry. Any Christian that truly follows the bible is going to be a hateful bigot.

  58. raygsanders01 says:

    “You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories and you say that we are the ones that need help?”
    –Mark Twain

  59. Marcus Vittitow says:

    I recently lost a lifelong friend who now is a born again christian woman. She and I were always close until she finally revealed to be she doesn’t accept me as a transgender man. I have been this for over 35 years now! She had been hiding this all this time.. I told her not to feel guilty about being my friend ..if she feels that way. then by all means go back to your hypocritical church and with your hypocritical friends and preach to the choir! Because if you cannot accept me then you are no real Christian..

    1. Carol B says:

      I’m sorry Marcus..if she’d been a true friend she would have accepted you as you are.

    2. joycecoolidge says:

      I’m so sorry that you were rejected by your friend. Here’s what Jesus had to say about things like that, …”love your neighbor, as you do yourself” I’m hoping that as she learns and grows, she’ll learn about love.

  60. Robert Barker says:

    This Progressive Democratic pastor from Arkansas says: “I am not allowed to put political signs in my yard or stickers on my car because it will offend my students and my congregants if they know how I truly believe, even though my gun toting friends can post all the memes promoting ignorance and violence they want, without fear.” She is the one putting a constraint on herself, not the extremist conservatives she lives with. Should not this pastor allow herself to be cowed into silence or, like Martin Luther say, “”Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise,” openly and proudly. How many of her neighbors will ever read this article, I wonder.

  61. Brenda says:

    Boy do I agree with everything you said here! I live in GA and I’m sick of NO Democrat support for fear of stepping on a conservative toe!! They have little regard for my position as a lefty, and often are presumptuous enough to just assume I’m in agreement with them. No Fellow Liberals, the time to stand up and speak out is past due! Staying quiet and stifling your perspective is not the game the Republicans are playing, and all it will get you is a bad passive aggressive problem! Speak up!!!! What you have to say may provide the soil for a seed to grow, even among the rocks!

    1. Carol B says:

      We live in GA too and I’ve always said that Republicans (no matter how nice they are personally) always think they’re the only people in the room and always assume you can’t possibly be a Democrat. Lived in Michigan for a while and sadly, it’s the same up north. So…hi Brenda..we’re here..lol..

  62. Alexander Brown says:

    Someone needs to get this woman an audience with the Pope, instead of that troglodyte Kim Davis

  63. ted rogers says:

    me too. Ted Rogers, Virginia born and raised.

  64. Cheryl Simon says:

    Good on ya, Melanie! You are a voice of reason in the backward South – and I live in Tennessee! It is so good to hear a Real True Christian acting like a Real True Christian.

  65. MerryMarjie says:

    These are well-thought out positions and I applaud you. But, you say, “I do not find good in both parties like I say I do to keep you happy.” This means you lie to people, and I fully understand WHY, because we all have to live in this world and it makes sense to keep the peace.

    I’d appreciate this much more if your sermons revolved around your true beliefs (all of these which you listed) because people need to know. Of course, you’d be kicked out of your churches, and would probably lose your professorship, and you would be very unpopular in your world.

    We are all afraid of True Courage.

    1. bet michael says:

      The first black slaves sold in Africa were sold by another Black slave merchant in Africa to both White and Black ship masters to bring to America

      1. mjhoop says:

        Your point?

  66. v2787 says:

    As a Southerner, I echo your words and wish you the very best. Frankly, I fear for your safety after your courageous article becomes common knowledge. I know how narrow minded and vindictive the redneck republican/teabagger conservatives can be in the South. Take care, and keep the faith. You’re a treasure.

  67. Stephanie Roberts Morin says:

    Beautifully said.

  68. Krystina Stark says:

    I am Pagan, but I was still nodding my head at every sentence. We need more people like you in this world. Thank you.

  69. OldCowboy 2 says:

    She absolutely nailed it.

  70. Angela Wright Osborn says:

    Thank you for this! Your courage is overwhelming. <3

  71. Angela Wright Osborn says:

    Thank you for this! Your courage is overwhelming!

  72. Dot says:

    The Christian right does not follow Jesus. They follow the old testament and they worship Jesus’ death, not his life. They think that since Jesus died for their sins, they will be forgiven for all the hateful, nasty stuff they do, even if it wasn’t what Jesus taught.

    1. mjhoop says:

      I’ve often thought christianity a death cult. Maybe that’s why so many professed xtians arm themselves with heavy weapons and celebrate a horrible death every easter.

  73. cobski says:

    I want so much to believe that people like Ms Tubbs are part of a new silent majority….driven by education, Christian values and basic common sense. If I am wrong, then the shining city on the hill will soon be a desolate and dark reality.

  74. Otto Greif says:

    You don’t seem very Christian

    1. Old Top Kick says:

      And you think that you are?

      1. Otto Greif says:

        I don’t pretend to be Christian.

        1. Old Top Kick says:

          Then what the hell do you mean by your comment?

          1. Otto Greif says:

            She’s obviously not a good Christian, she should stop pretending.

            1. Old Top Kick says:

              How so? Enlighten us, please.

            2. David Shaw Jr says:

              Who are you to proclaim that she isn’t a “good Christian”? What is you criteria?

  75. Alice Lindsley says:

    Perhaps if there were more real Christians like this woman there wouldn’t’ be so much hate and fear mongering coming from the pulpits! Good for her!~

  76. Stephanie Pelka-Cole says:

    Amen! I keep yelling at my computer screen at these GOP talking heads, “WWJD” and it is frustrating! SO glad to read the rantings of a kindred spirit!

  77. Old Top Kick says:

    As a staunch atheist, I approve of this message.

  78. Emmett Keyser says:

    #6 is roughly a “no true Scotsman fallacy”. Lots of Christians are prejudiced and hate. Stating otherwise is simply making the fallacy that no true Christian (your new definition that makes you feel better) is prejudiced when in reality it probably has nothing to do with religion. But you still share some beliefs with those people (Christianity).

  79. Concerned Vegas Citizen says:

    Hypocrites come in all religions and like to hide behind it.

  80. StevenLockey says:

    I agree with everything you said except the flag.

    You’d have to apply the same to pretty much every flag in the world, USA, France, UK, Germany e.t.c.

    Also at the start of the civil war, both sides had slaves. Freeing the slaves with more of a clever strategy than a moral thing, since not only were the north short on man-power, but since most of the people who normally guarded the slaves were fighting, it made it much easier for the slaves to rebel and come to the north, forcing the south to take more of it’s men off the front line to guard them.

    As well as claiming the morale upper ground of course 🙂

    The sad fact is people will abuse any symbol, that doesn’t always reflect on the symbol itself. The swastica for example was in use thousands of years before Nazis used it.

  81. unsleep says:

    you only need to stop being christian to become good person, good steps to atheism. being christian in a mental sickness and youfall into stupidness like ben carlson, you cannot be inteligent, cultured and christian. its incompatible.

  82. Beverly Margolis says:

    That man deserves a big hug and a medal around his neck. I’m not a Christian, but I could love this man. He speaks my thoughts. I’d vote for him for President Sanders’ veep. I used to be an independent, but have been registered Democratic Socialist.
    He’s got his head put together, we need more people like him.

  83. Tina Morphis says:

    I live in Arkansas as well, have a college degree and have voted Democrat all of my life. I’m no longer a practicing Christian but when I was, everyone in my church was a Dem. Why? Well because of the beatitudes, because of what Jesus taught us.

    I, am like her, but I have become a two issue voter. If you’re bad on women’s rights and bad on guns, you aren’t getting my vote. I don’t care how much you want to increase the safety gaps, I don’t care how much you profess to want to keep Soc.Sec., Medicare and or Medicaid just as it is.

    You see, I’m a mom of a beautiful daughter who is going to nursing school. My biggest fear, is that someone is going to take away her rights and or kill her in a mass shooting. I’m not scared about her driving, I’m not scared about her having a drink or two, or even a joint if she wants one, but I am scared of unregulated guns and too much regulation on a woman’s uterus.

    So, I’ve become a two issue voter. Not all Arkansans are MIke Huckabee’s. Heck most people I know, can’t stand the man.

  84. Steve says:

    Great article, I think you make some excellent point and I enjoyed reading it. As someone who grew up Christian and in the south, I connect with what you say.

  85. DS says:

    That is brilliant – I left the church because there are few like you …. thank you for speaking out! I do not participate in organized religion any longer because they are the least religious people I know. They are, as you said, filled with hate and judgment. They do not act as I was brought up to believe all those many years ago when I was a child. I am spiritual and I follow my own path because I have to… it is the only way I can find love and peace and people who believe the way I do. They are not in churches any more for the most part – people like me have given up on religion sadly. I believe in God, I know I am a good person … I make mistakes but have been tainted by the hate that is rampant in this country sadly. I am working on that because I find myself hating those horrible people who proclaim themselves to be christian and act the opposite. It makes me very bitter. Thank you for letting me know there are people like you in the south and in this country. Although we may differ on some things I respect you and what you stand for!

  86. James Adams says:

    Mostly agree…not all. But respect his right to voice an opinon.

  87. arkpaul says:

    Well, Rev. Tubbs, if your hatred of opposing views, as you expressed your own, and self-congratulation are Christian values, then you nailed it.

  88. Jeremy Tarone says:

    “6. You cannot be both prejudiced and Christian. One prevents the other. No exceptions. If you are Christian, you don’t hate.”

    Because, of course, there is only one correct interpretation of the One True Sect of the One True Religion™.
    Because God, in his Infinite Wisdom, got it wrong in the Old Testament when he drown everyone in the flood, or killed all the first born, or ordered the destruction of 6 different peoples, and the taking of the virgins for the soldiers, killing of disrespectful children, stoning of adulterers, killing of homosexuals, killing of people who work on the sabbath, etc, etc, etc.

    Oh, I know, Jesus changed all that. According to some interpretations. Not all. That’s why there is so many sects.
    Which is a long way to get around to saying, that’s the no true Scotsman fallacy.

    Have a nice day.

  89. RLuxe says:

    Good for you for speaking out, Melanie. I live in Arkansas too and understand what it is like to be in the closet. I am not in the closet anymore and I hope you can begin to share some of your wisdom in person, out loud with your friends, neighbors, and relatives. Talk to people one-on-one (NOT groups), in a relaxing setting. Provide food, sit outside where it is peaceful, and ask open-ended questions. Don’t be forceful, but plant the seeds that might grow and lead to a change of heart. They will love you regardless, and change can only happen through real dialogue. Keep on keeping on, girl. I am proud of you!

  90. marigold1960 says:

    Wonderfully written. Spot on. Too bad more Southerners don’t believe like this pastor. The country would be in a better place if they did! 😉

  91. Jo says:

    I am a believer in God, but have never been a church-goer for all the reasons you mentioned. I have never understood how “Christian” Republicans can turn their backs on the needy, fill themselves with so much hate for those that are “different” from them, support going to a senseless war, support arming people with weapons to harm others…all while purporting to follow Christ. It’s actually blasphemous if you think about it. I think I would love to attend one of your services. Thank you for speaking your truth, which eloquently speaks the words I have felt for so many years.

  92. Joe Hoover says:

    Wonderful! I know there are intelligent, caring people in the south, but like you are usually not comfortable making their view known for fear of retaliation (same here). I will be sharing this and hopefully some of my more conservative ‘friends’ will actually read it and see some light. Thank you.

  93. Karen Byrd Brasier says:

    I live in Alabamastan. Being an educated person here is very, very hard.
    Southern Baptist ‘Christianity’ only works for the uneducated, which
    is 90% of the population. I LOVE this article. I am going to share it
    EVERYDAY in Alabama until maybe the lights start to come back on. It is a dark, dark place!

  94. GM Miller says:

    Now add in being an atheist and living in Mississippi, lol. The south can be a lonely place.

  95. Jamie Oliver says:

    Wow. I find it hard to believe you say you are Christian. You are definitely not a Bible-following, Jesus believing Christian. Original marriage was NOT polygamy. From the being it was one man and one woman. The fact that you vote Democratic. Every. Time. as you stated shows that you are liberal and are NOT a Bible follower. Most Democrats are mostly pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage which both are condemned in the Bible. I hate when people like you go around spouting your false doctrine which is not Biblical and not God honoring. For those who will call me judgmental, read the Bible. It calls us to judge between right and wrong. You, sir, are wrong.

    1. Randy Rain says:

      I really don’t trust your interpretation of the bible Jamie Oliver. Your statement above shows that you are clearly lacking in reading comprehension skills and likely none to swift in the critical thinking department as indicated by the simple fact that you were unable to discern the fact that the author of the article that you are in a tizzy over is a female.

  96. Eric-Valerie Spears says:

    Yes, exactly! Thank you for your courage in speaking the truth!

  97. Rhyanna says:

    thank you for saying this. I hope and pray that many will take to heart and pray and read the US Constitution, for the 2nd American doesn’t state that its every persons right to take up arms. Instead it says, It gives the right of the STATES to form militia to protect and defend its people and borders. That is what it says read it.

    I use to live in Fla and I give thanks to god that I haven’t since 1982 for what it is and does now sickens me. And those southern states that have passed laws limiting a persons’ right to vote, shame on you and I hope that the people of those states find a way to change it to allow Every Person the right to vote as stated in the US Constitution. The Voting Rights Act of 1965. the 19th amendment guarantees all American women the right to vote.

  98. Cory L. Kammerdiener says:

    We are to live in the world, but have no part of it. By you saying you choose a side in the political America, you just contradicticted yourself as a follower of Christ. Please show me in any way that Jesus casted His lot for any governmental ruler or religious ruler of His day. You also condemned Repiblicans and by doing so, you condemned Ben Carson … Is he not a follower of the Way?

  99. Ami Clayton says:

    While the phrasing was in many ways harsher than I personally would have used, she isn’t wrong. I left the United Methodist Church about ten years ago. I’m glad some stuck with it to fight for change.

  100. The Professor says:

    I tried. Matt 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

  101. fivepearlz says:

    Did she say eat some biscuits and gravy???

    Great. Now I’m hungry. *Carbs do not like my thighs*

  102. Diane Stanley says:

    Thank you!!!

  103. vamom1 says:

    Speaking as another Southerner – I’m happy to see some of the normal Southerners start speaking up. THANK YOU!

  104. Roy Merritt says:

    You are not alone Pastor, I am a Christian and I find that if you have faith in Jesus Christ and follow his teachings, you cannot be a Tea Party or Republican.

  105. Well, I hope the author enjoyed her time as a preacher and college professor in rural Arkansas, because once word of this article gets out, she’ll be run out of town on a rail. Those ignorant backwoods rednecks don’t cotton to anyone calling them out for being stupid racist homophobic pricks.

    1. John Murdock II says:

      And you feel your anger and harsh, disrespectful words will help or change that in anyway?

      1. I’m not angry, and the only disrespect in my comment is directed toward the stupid, racist, homophobic rednecks who richly deserve it.

        1. John Murdock II says:

          You don’t like being disrespected for your views yet you have no issue disrespecting those who don’t share your views. I fail to see the logic in your bigotry. This type of bigotry does little more than anger people and nothing to help them see the light of your view. In fact it pushes them further from it. I will leave it at that and we may agree to disagree if you if you like. Hope you are having a great day! and that it continues through the week!

          1. Momoends says:

            she´s not disrespecting those who don´t share her views. you don´t share them and she has´t offended you at all. She´disrespecting those that she thinks cruel enough to make a pastor being fired and out of the town because of her not sharing THEIR views

  106. John Murdock II says:

    I will start with this: I am not looking to anger anyone and not looking to argue but rather point out a few things and possibly have a healthy debate.

    As a born and raised, uneducated, gunsmithing, southerner, I find a few issues in the text. In the first paragraph the following is stated:”But I am not allowed to put political signs in my yard or stickers on my car because it will offend my students and my congregants if they know how I truly believe”, that idea is foreign to me. Maybe it was just me but I was raised on ideology from a country song by Aaron Tippin, which states “You’ve got to stand for something or you’ll fall for anything. You’ve got to be your own man not a puppet on a string. Never compromise what’s right and uphold your family name.” Seems to me that Christ was willing to stand up for what he believed in, and publicly! This pastor preaches of the teachings of Christ but isn’t seeming to follow them in this regard. Furthermore they are being deceptive to their students and congregants.
    Now number 2 seems to conflict with number 6. 2 seems to show obvious prejudice towards republicans but 6 says you can’t be prejudice and be christian. I, for one vote on the issues and it’s usually a pretty mixed ballot.
    While I can see both sides of the confederate flag issue, (and I don’t care about a damn flag one way or the other) I think the history is a bit hazy in number 10. Most of the south did not own slaves as most were too poor and many northerners held slaves up until the proclamation was made by a president who owned slaves himself. Next, the south was no more treasonous terrorists than the colonist who founded this country, the only difference in the civil war is that the rebels looking to form their own country lost. Both started over a feeling of a lack of representation in the one central government and the economic modalities surrounding it.

    All of that said, I support adults being able to get hitched regardless of sexual orientation, race or religion. I support separation of church and state. I do believe that there is FAR too much hate, but don’t feel guns are the issue. People who look to kill will find a way to kill guns or not. I use my guns to relax and decompress, to take my focus away from what’s stressing me and instead focus on slowing down my heart rate and controlling my breathing,or on the passing clay to be broken. Some will say that I am just one example but I can attest that most of my gun customers feel the same. I don’t carry a gun for my own protection but instead for that of my friends and family, and Christ like or not, I think most of use will do what we feel we need to do to protect our family. As for freedom of speech, I am using it now and hope that others will read what I have written, dwell upon it, and use their freedom to respond, in favor or not.

    Hope everyone is having a good day!

    1. keithtunell says:

      You have a rather soft touch when noting errant arguments (e.g. the history is a bit hazy). She said she was a history professor. And she may be a very accomplished one. I just assume her specialty is not American history. When the states were called upon to unite under one flag, there was great reluctance. There were a lot of speeches, essays, books, and discussion to get those states to agree. And one of the biggest parts of the deal was the idea that the states would retain as much power to control their own destiny as possible. They granted the federal government only the powers granted to it in the Constitution. Finally, in 1787 nine of the original thirteen states signed on to become states in the United States of America. Fast forward to the Civil War – and the southern states believed that the federal government was going back on the deal and taking more power and having greater authority over them than was agreed when they signed up. So they decided to exercise their right to get out of the deal. For perspective and to help understand their frame of mind, the Civil War started in 1861 – only 74 years after they signed the Constitution to form the Union. That’s how long ago it was when the USA joined the battle in WWII. Memories of the promises made and the attitudes that the United States could be dissolved if the federal government tried to strong arm the states with powers it didn’t have. Lincoln did what he had to do. But I don’t believe an American History scholar would refer to them as “treasonous terrorists.”

      But maybe Ms. Tubbs will gain those insights yet. I’m glad to read in her closing that she intends to “read real scholarly work on the issues of this country, so that [she] can form educated, rational opinions . . .” The evidence suggests to me she may have a little more reading, or perhaps opinion forming, to do at this point.

  107. Lori Pope Luther says:

    Amen!! Beautifully written!!! From another member of the Christian Left in the deep red south (Mississippi).

  108. Ell torn says:

    Although I agree with the statements, it’s clearly propaganda.

  109. TKO says:

    This is wonderful, and we reposted on our site yesterday, however: Any idea what a picture of gun-wielding hand comes up in the preview pane? So inappropriate.

  110. joe sanford says:

    God’s word is what you and every other believer want it to be.

  111. DS says:

    No, she is speaking like people used to believe and live when I was a child growing up. Before the christian sect decided to run the lives of others based upon their own prejudices, not on WWJD mentality. She is a true Christian and I do believe in God… I am not an atheist. I just know what a real christian is supposed to be like.

  112. If I could find a local minister like you, I might go back to church.

  113. Sue Jerome-Daly says:

    God bless you, sister!! Well said.

  114. William Michael Stone says:

    Thank you, and I respect you. But, I have to bring something to your myoptic sight. When a drunk driver kills someone….do they blame the car? Or, the driver? I own guns, and, I have stopped crime in its tracks, just by showing some idiot that I will use it. Thus, possibly saving someone I love from being hurt or killed. Most times when a gun was used to protect someone its “not the news” so, it never gets brought to the public. I personally use my guns for hunting, and protection. If you have ever had a gun pointed at you, you will understand. It’s better to have one, and not need it, than need it, and not have it. And, for your information, I am neither a republican, or, a democrat, I am a centrist, which means that I pick out the logical middle ground. Our right to own guns was done to protect us from oppression, from foreign invaders, and, our own government, which is becoming more oppressive everyday. Sorry about the deaths in this country that might be related to guns, look at traffic deaths if you want a real eye opener, then look at the one related to texting. This is not, nor will it ever be a utopia, and, until it is utopia, such as the place you live in, ( away from the public, in your hill, in the woods, where gangsters, crooks, and other malcontents have no interest), you cannot understand the need. So, please get some more….”real education”, before you pass judgment, you are not qualified as of yet.

  115. Recoloniser says:

    Pastor, you are a Mensch

  116. keithtunell says:

    Focusing on number 1 above: I’ll assume both sentences are accurate and true statements. But the second one (deducing from context that she is identifying “intolerance and hatred” as Republican attributes) can only be true because she included the word “my” before Christ. Her Christ is apparently a different Christ than who most Christians I know worship. (Alternatively, she has a distorted view of what Republican beliefs are. But I started this assuming her premises to be true.) I can only conclude that she subscribes to the notion that we should judge eveyone of a class by the deeds or words of part of that class. Presumably then, she judges Muslims by the terrorists, and Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church. (Although the ego that comes through her harsh sentiments suggest she is the type to limit that second part to just Baptists.) Either way, she should check into that log of intolerance in her own eye. I wish I was a member of her congregation so I could quit. Terrible leadership.

  117. Stephanie Emm says:

    We needs more people to speak up. I fear for our country if a Republican is elected.

  118. RLAndrews57 says:

    Real Christians can be wrong about a lot of things. Do you consider Martin Luther to have been a real Christian? Do you know he was anti-semitic? I’d much rather he hadn’t been because I’d like to believe your point #6. But becoming a Christian doesn’t always keep a person from hating. I doubt that it has entirely kept you from hating people like me.

  119. Analbumcover says:

    Yeah, most of the Christians I know are kindhearted people who do try to follow what Jesus taught about loving people rather than judging them. It’s not fair to focus on the small percentage of Christians who spread hate (don’t even try to follow what Jesus taught) and present them as “typical.” In fact it could be argued that since they openly defy many of the commands Jesus gave, they can’t realistically be considered Christians. Any group of people is going to have its share of haters.

  120. Jason Jacovelli says:

    I’m from Arkansas as well and I am proud that a fellow Arkansan had the courage to stand up and say this! Kudos! Keep up the good fight!

  121. Tory Gates says:

    Eloquent, that’s all I can say, and it needed a lady such as this one to say it.

  122. Bipolarbear says:

    This needs to be said. Over and over.

  123. Viola Pastuszyn says:

    Another atheist here who applauds you. Every time I hear a christian say, “we’re not all like that” I ask them why they are arguing with me instead of those they say they’re not like.

  124. Guillotines of Progress says:

    You’ve got to say, ‘I’m a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!’
    So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your
    chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it,
    and stick your head out, and yell, ‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT
    GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!’

  125. KC says:

    Isn’t this great she told you what you wanted to hear. I suppose that this church will not be required to pay taxes because of the pastors political views?

    1. girlofsandwich says:

      Duh, no church is required to pay taxes.

  126. Patrick Moore says:

    Literally the only thing I have some issue with the the broad brush thought that Democrat = Good and Republican = Bad in item 2. You have to listen to the person and their views, especially on the local levels. Nationally, there is a point there because all of the Republicans at that level seem to be insane…as do quite a few of the Democrats.

    We have to get away from the label defining the person. The person defines the person. To ignore this is to doom either party from getting better than they are, and they both (one more than the other) need to get better on certain things.

  127. jodisassygurl says:

    Although I agree with this pastor’s article, something makes me suspicious: how can he claim both to vote Republican (as stated in the first paragraph) and then say, “I vote for Democrats. Every time…” Is this for real?

    1. Kyle Hale says:

      “I am a southern pastor and an educated professor who lives in rural Arkansas amidst folks who own guns and vote Republican.”

      She’s saying the people who own guns vote Republican, not that she votes Republican.

      1. jodisassygurl says:

        Oops, my bad. And I thought I was being a careful reader (blush). Thanks for clarifying.

        1. Kyle Hale says:

          No problem!

  128. E-ticket-lizabeth says:

    Perfectly said. I, too, am a Liberal Christian who cannot imagine how people can claim Christianity as their belief but listen to Rush Limbaugh and similar hatemongers. Religion = love and respect, not hatred and fear. And no, I don’t believe the terrorists like ISIL represent Islam, either, just as Westboro Baptist most assuredly does not represent me or my God!

  129. Nancy Morris says:

    Well said! Brava!

  130. Tomeco Hawkins says:

    The sad thing is, this woman who wrote this article professes to be a Christian. Your hatred and intolerance goes against the principles of my lord and savior. You and the rest of your racist, bigoted liberal friends have taken the love of God and distorted it. Just remember what the bible says about your damnation.

  131. MPBulletin says:

    Well said! WELL SAID!!!

  132. Patrick Downs says:

    THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. Full stop. re “There is too much hate and there are too many guns in this country. And, I believe those things do not align with Christ’s command to love our neighbor. You cannot believe that guns are the way to save the world if you study Christ’s teachings. Peace, love, giving, acceptance, forgiveness; Christ taught all these things. I find no red scriptures on gun ownership or arming for peace. They just aren’t there. Get over it. You are not being a Christian if you put your faith in guns. How dare you post pro-gun propaganda after a school shooting. It is insensitive, and offensive, and immoral. Christ would NOT approve. People carrying guns are NOT saving lives. But the free availability of guns in this country is causing deaths which are reaching viral proportions. Enough is enough. I don’t care about your damned right to own guns. I am tired of children dying in this great country.”

    — There is not one gun that has murdered someone of its own volition. There is not one law against murder which has stopped a murder from happening (think about that for a second). With any weapon. It’s a people problem, with people’s souls, morals, values, and ethics. Banning guns won’t cure it. The right to self-defense is also God-given, if you believe in the sanctity of life. No criminal has the right to murder me nor anyone else, and should be stopped by any legal means possible.

  133. Jim Claypool says:

    Amen!

  134. Laura says:

    News flash… Psychopaths will use whatever they can to inflict pain on people.
    I am always amazed at how lazy we are as a country when it comes to problem resolution. We tend to jump on and implement the quick, easy, no thought plan. Guess it helps people sleep at night thinking they did something regardless of the outcome. I don’t know? What I do know (and it did not take much brain power to see this truth/reality)… is a ban on firearms will not end mass killings or stop mentally unstable and/or criminals from committing violent acts. The type of weapon is of little consequence when in a bad persons hand and we must look at other ways to prevent violent acts. If not, please don’t act surprised when your supported gun ban is introduced and the violence continues. From a religious perspective, I am unable to state what Jesus would think or do in today’s world. I’m guessing, he would still probably hold the persons accountable (individual, family and the community) not the weapon. Accountability and ownership (what? ? lol)

    ?✌️

  135. Brianna LaPoint says:

    the idea of christian left is ABIT insulting
    because it implies you need jesus to be good

  136. Brianna LaPoint says:

    you ever read ten things i learned wrong from a conservative church by john killinger? i learned self respect, forgiveness’ self love all as a buddhist, not as a christian. christians cant coexist with each other, somehow the christian left has failed.

  137. Glenda Clemens says:

    Hooray!!!! Thank you so much for your brilliant post.

  138. Nathan says:

    And as an avowed atheist I can say ignorant. How can you possibly quote one Constitutional right then say another should be null and void. I honestly don’t give a rats ass about your constitutional right of freedom of religion. So much harm has been done in the name of religion but you don’t hear me saying we should repeal that right and get over it. I personally don’t own a gun but I sure as he’ll am not give up my constitutional right to protect myself and my children I the exact same manner the the president and his children are protected.

  139. William Waugh says:

    this is called being a humanist you can follow a religion and still believe that the betterment of mankind comes before your beliefes

  140. RileyMcD says:

    I absolutely do not understand how a Christian can understand the Bible and believe it is morally okay to vote on the same side as the very people who are in favor of abortion. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” – Jeremiah 1:5

    1. Erik J says:

      Except that this exact mindset is whats wrong. No one is in favor of abortion. Ever. No one’s favored stance is ever “Hell yeah abortion!” People are in favor however of choice. Of ownership of the self, of their own body. The ability to make a difficult decision when put in that position. Also at a biblical level, pretty sure we shouldn’t view it as 1:1 with abortion/choice rights as that wasn’t really much of a thing back then.

      1. RileyMcD says:

        By voting as a Democrat, you are saying that abortion is okay and it does not need to stop. As a Christian, you absolutely should not be okay with killing a life. God tells us that in the womb, you are formed in the image of Him. To be a Christian means you believe that there is life in the womb because God has a plan for you before you were born.

  141. Joshua S says:

    “If you want to show your southern pride, fly an American flag and be the true patriot you claim to be.”

    The same flag that flew over slave ships? The same flag that was painted on the planes that dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The same flag that flew over concentration camps housing Japanese Americans during WWII? The same flag that went into battle against Native Americans, flew over the Native Americans on the Trail of Tears, and flew over Native Americans that were round up and put on reservations?

    I’m a bit of a realist. If you’re going to call the Confederate Battle flag racist (which it has been adopted to be), then you have to do the same and look at the same hatred bred into the American flag.

  142. NCMichael says:

    Well, that is a fair amount of intolerance from a liberal. The bible may be one of the most violent books written. And clearly if you disagree with this pastors views, you are wrong. Now on to gun control. I challenge you to look up the murder stats in Ireland, England, and Australia for ten years before their bans and after. Murder rates are flat. No up, no down. Gun control didn’t fix anything. What does violence correlate to? Poverty. Poverty, which last time I checked is a major point in Christianity. Ending poverty. Helping the poor. Not a word in her diatribe for that. So, how about this, let’s work on poverty and education. Let’s lift people up so murder, however it’s committed, goes down. Because whether it’s overseas, or in Chicago, gun control doesn’t change anything.

  143. Lisztman says:

    Thank you for a concise, well written, exposé on what it means to be a Christian in America. Or, at the least, what it is supposed to mean. I have a particular fondness for #6 (and #2) — and have stated it on FB more than once.

    The related subject about which I most harp, on FB, is the reading and interpretation of the Bible. I am TIRED of reading rants from the right wing about marriage being “a man and a woman as it says in the Bible.” My usual reply is to ask them how often they’ve been married. Mark 10:9. They enjoy cherry-picking the words of Jesus as it suits them. They also forget that, in so many ways, Jesus came to us to fulfill the Old Testament and establish a New Law for us. So WHY are they so fond of quoting Leviticus? If they like the OT, why do they not keep Kosher? Etc.

    I have tried on numerous occasions to explain that, re the age of the Earth, the Biblical ancients had no clue as to the origins of the Earth, and life upon it. It was easier to simply explain that God made it so. They had no idea that someday someone would discover Carbon-14. Or measure the distance to the nearest star. Or express the age of the universe in “billions”. They had no word for “billion”. And even if they understood that stuff, explain it to a shepherd. Ha!

    Anyway, again. Thank you. I was born and raised RC, but have constant philosophical issues with a surface reading of Christianity. I DO know that I still otherwise live my life according to His word and I’ll probably see you on the other side.

  144. FNCFTL says:

    I am kinda annoyed that her job is interpreting religion and morality and somehow she’s found a way to “hide” how she feels about these religious and ethical issues. I mean, I love me a good Leftist Fire & Brimstone speech, but it sounds like her actual congregants need to hear that to their faces! Don’t come to the internet and preach to the proverbial choir, when you got an actual choir that needs to hear the Word!

    Tell it like it is on Sunday! Don’t let your congregation tell you all about how afraid they are of brown people, LGBTs, other religions, and other cultures, and think God won’t be looking at you when one of those congregants goes out and does something stupid, because you didn’t wanna HURT THEIR FEELINGS.

  145. Dafoxxy says:

    Most of you people make me sick! You act as though the Republicans have always been what is wrong with this country! You completely ignore the facts of the Democratic party! Even when presented with clear arguments, you somehow find a way to turn it around! I won’t even discuss Christianity. You mostly pick and chose what you can to use against Christians, from the Bible, anyway. Typical Liberals!

  146. Helen Kearney says:

    This is one of the best readings I have done in forever ~ At the age of 85 ~ a true Democrat ~ active with my electronics ~ photography and abstract art ~ guns are my big issue ~ Your reading my

    friend made my day

  147. RonThugnot says:

    That’s a woman with guts, and brains and a full understanding of what Christ asked of humanity.

  148. Jeffrey Bean says:

    Beautiful. You’ve just written my manifesto. Thank you!

  149. Junebug says:

    WOW Thank you!!!! I grew up in a Christian home and I am so so so tired of not being able to speak my political opinions due to my very Republican family members. Nowhere in the Bible does it say it’s sin to be a Democrat. Thank you for speaking the truth. Gun violence has reached unimaginable proportions and a persons right to a gun should not be built upon the blood of children. Thanks for having a brain and speaking that mind.

  150. MRichards says:

    “Intolerance and hatred are not in the teachings of my Christ…”

    Ok yeah, that sounds reasonable…

    “I would vote for a yellow dog before I voted Republican, just like my Ma and Pa before me…”

    That sounds kiiinda like you were taught/inherited (you know, like had and prejudice are usually passed down) intolerance of and hatred for about half the country…

    “If you are Christian, you don’t hate…”

    Yeah, I’m picking up on that

    “How dare you post pro-gun propaganda after a school shooting. It is insensitive, and offensive, and immoral”

    Is that why Obama said we should politicize it? Because you know once you say it’s ok for one group… but at least he didn’t do it after that follower of the other peaceful sacred book shot multiple service men.

    “People carrying guns are NOT saving lives.”

    False. Just false. Beyond the LEOs, Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airman, I can cite voluminous examples of firearms being used to protect and save lives; but you don’t sound like you want to hear anything that disagrees with your dug in position. That’s pretty open minded.

    “I don’t care about your damned right to own guns…”

    Oh, we’re back to that liberal christian form of tolerance, respect for others and love.

    Numbers 8 & 9…

    totally agree. Government should stay out of relationships between consenting adults… out of religion, and vice versa.

    10. I’m neutral on. States and cities should be able to vote on matters like this without demands from the rest of the nation.

    Ultimately, I find it ironic that you start this off stating your religious position, talk about Christ through most of it, segway into political/governmental policies, then end with separation of church and state… shouldn’t your pastoring stay out of legislative matters?

  151. Earl Eakin says:

    Too bad 1 Timothy 2:12 makes your opinion invalid. Better luck next religion!

  152. Monica Heller says:

    You don’t have to be a christian in order to hold those same values and ideals as the author extols.

  153. Luigi DiMasi says:

    This woman is an idiot. Her college degrees prove that smart people can be dumb. Here’s why: I do not carry a firearm because I feel no need to, but the 2nd Amendment says …… “the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed” ( I know it also says a “well regulated militia” as well, all a militia means is any capable military aged males of a state.) If it weren’t for guns we would be British and not Americans (countrymen of the country she claims is great), there is a reason it says “arms” and not “firearms” and it’s because “arms” are weapons in addition to an individual’s own body and limbs. That’s why “firearm” has the word fire before arm. It is a type of “arm” which is short for armament; holy text or scripture will never mention “guns” because they didn’t exist at the time in the region where Judaism, Christianity, and Islam where birthed, that should be obvious. So, in her argument of “actually reading the bible” (or anything else) maybe reading a history book would help in being able to deduce that guns weren’t an option at that point in history, which brings up the Confederate flag. The flag she speaks of is not the confederate flag but instead it was the Virginia battle flag (go ahead and read a history book). The Confederate flag was 2 stripes (dark red and white with a field of blue and white stars in a circular pattern, not orange with a blue X and white stars in it; voting democrat (or republican) every time just because of the title of the party shows lack of human nature and free thought (free thought, the very fabric of American society), it’s robotic and lacking of the desire to search for what’s right because at some point (no matter where you lean more towards) someone or some group you may generally not agree with can, in fact, be a better choice on occasion. And finally, guns do not keep the peace. People (and people only) either keep or break the peace. If you don’t admit that you are a stubborn liar. The hatred that exists and has always existed and will always exist, as well as the oppression that is of the same, can not be cured with the wonderful projection of love that all people should have. The guns and other types of “armament” so prescribed in the second amendment are in existence to let oppressors and other vagrants understand it is going to be a bad day if they decide to destroy the harmony of good people. These types of terrible people will do what they please if they can find a way (physically with a weapon or their person and/ or psychologically with their minds and ego) to force their will unto other people. Showing those people love, trust, and faith will not change that. For good to be recognized unfortunately there must be bad. Her views on separation of church and state, bias, bigotry, and consenting adults are dead on accurate. Her opinions are her own as are mine and anyone else’s and this is all okay and doesn’t make anyone bad. Our differences are to be celebrated so leg as we are collectively striving for what’s good. And like she said about not hating people even when they’re stupid, I don’t hate anyone who doesn’t agree with me. So, with that there are the reasons as to why she is a college educated smart dummy.

  154. R. Schauer says:

    Well educated and believe in God? ” Eyes roll.” Are we going to sacrifice our way to a better world? Where is the evidence?

  155. Luigi DiMasi says:

    This woman is an idiot. Her college degrees prove that smart people can be dumb. Here’s why: I do not carry a firearm because I feel the need to, but the 2nd Amendment says …… “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” ( I know it says a “well regulated militia” as well, all a militia means is any capable military aged males of a state. That’s why men must register for selective service at 18 years of age.), If it weren’t for guns we would be British and not Americans (countrymen of the nation she claims is great). The 2nd Amendment is not in effect so we may hunt it’s here to make everyone understand that we as a species (like any other) may not be told when, how, or if we may defend ourselves and others if the event may arise and that include a government should it become out of control and subject the people to oppression by force. There is a reason it says “arms” and not “firearms” and it’s because “arms” are weapons in addition to an individual’s own body and limbs. That’s why “firearm” has the word fire before arm. It is a type of “arm” which is short for armament; holy text or scripture will never mention “guns” because they didn’t exist at the time in the region where Judaism, Christianity, and Islam where birthed, that should be obvious. So, in her argument of “actually reading the bible” (or anything else) maybe reading a history book would help in being able to deduce that guns weren’t an option at that point in history, which brings up the Confederate flag. The flag she speaks of is not the confederate flag but instead it was the Virginia battle flag (go ahead and read a history book). The Confederate flag was 2 stripes (dark red and white with a field of blue and white stars in a circular pattern, not orange with a blue X and white stars in it; voting democrat (or republican) every time just because of the title of the party shows lack of human nature and free thought (free thought, the very fabric of American society), it’s robotic and lacking of the desire to search for what’s right because at some point (no matter where you lean more towards) someone or some group you may generally not agree with can, in fact, be a better choice on occasion. And finally, guns do not keep the peace. People (and people only) either keep or break the peace. If you don’t admit that you are a stubborn liar. The hatred that exists and has always existed and will always exist, as well as the oppression that is of the same, can not be cured with the wonderful projection of love that all people should have. The guns and other types of “armament” so prescribed in the second amendment are in existence to let oppressors and other vagrants understand it is going to be a bad day if they decide to destroy the harmony of good people. These types of terrible people will do what they please if they can find a way (physically with a weapon or their person and/ or psychologically with their minds and ego) to force their will unto other people. Showing those people love, trust, and faith will not change that. For good to be recognized unfortunately there must be bad. Her views on separation of church and state, bias, bigotry, and consenting adults are dead on accurate. Her opinions are her own as are mine and anyone else’s and this is all okay and doesn’t make anyone bad. Our differences are to be celebrated so long as we are collectively striving for what’s good and just. And, like she said about not hating people even when they’re stupid, I don’t hate anyone who doesn’t agree with me. So, with that, there are the reasons as to why she is a college educated smart dummy.

  156. DeSwiss says:

    This PK heartily approves this message….. 🙂

  157. FoShizzle says:

    Spoken just like my Arkansas yellow dog democrat Christian grandparents!

  158. Jeff Dahl says:

    I just re-read my handy pocket constitution… and cant find the words separation of church and state anywhere. The closest thing I can find is the wording Congress shall make no law against religion… or establish a state religion so I guess that means its alright if the supreme court does huh?

  159. Steve Snow says:

    Sorry, but #2 actually does say you are both prejudiced and stupid. All Democrats are good and all Republicans are bad? Seriously? And what’s with the multiple degrees? They prove nothing but that you can remember factoids. You obviously have issues with application and common sense. Therefor, nothing else you say matters.

  160. Natalie Rose Euley says:

    I’m just going to move. California is the place for a blue person like me. Alabama is not and never will be, even if my family is here.

  161. Ben Howe says:

    I tell people that I would vote for a rabid dog for dog catcher before I would vote for a republican.

    1. Hope says:

      Surely you have the capacity to hear all sides before making up your mind. You may learn something from someone on the other side of the aisle. Considering what others have to say and listening respectfully to a variety of viewpoints shows tolerance and maturity. To do anything else is intolerant and narrow-minded.

      1. Ben Howe says:

        I think the republicans have had plenty of chances to show me what their policies would be. I disagree with every one of them. They have nothing to offer the working man.

  162. Aaron says:

    What about when Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves with swords the night of his betrayal?

  163. Michael Bowen Roberts says:

    I read the preamble of the constution of every state of all fifty states ,Leaving GOD out were Colorado 1876, Iowa 1857, Delaware 1897, Hawaii 1959, Maine 1820, Missouri 1845, Vermont 1777, Virginia 1776, Washington 1889. Of the original colonies, Delaware 1897, Maine 1820, Vermont 1777, Virginia 1776 even Thomas Jefferson thought not to mix religion with governmental since it was covered in the declaration of independence, for GOD was not to be denied his authorship , point is four other states followed this design in their constitutions’ and forty-two other states reminded the world that GOD is in charge . GOD is in-charge and to deny him the admission of his works is condemnation of the believer, the nation was formed based on freedoms, The forefathers of this nation recognized as GOD given GOD provided thus establishing the sole ownership as GOD’S, the creator of all

    Majority of the following states formed after 1775 recognized the importance of God in the forming of a nation and the ties that bind this nation together are Christian based. I believe we all have rights and following the laws as written is our Christian duty. An American is not just a Christian as an American, All have a choice, All have free wills to choose, as each person bases their belief’s, so me to be a Christian I must accept these facts as an American I must also accept them, as a member of a National Free Republic which all have a democratic right and responsibility As their values lead them. I will not undermine what the creator provided me or fail to follow my faith to be politically correct.

  164. Sgt K USMC says:

    Your second point invalidates everything else you say after it and completely destroys the last 4 words of your opener “and not be stupid”

    1. Hope says:

      I totally agree. It is the very definition of intolerance to adopt the stance that everyone who disagrees is stupid. It taints everything else that is said.

  165. Lippyone says:

    I thought it was a poorly written article. Redundant and mixed up subjects. More liberal rankings than facts. Example: she doesn’t understand the Constitution. Freedom of religion is in the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution. Quotes only parts of the Constitution and Bible she uses are ones that suit her. Gay marriage consumption is condemned in the Bible, old and new testaments.. Polygamy was not condoned in the Bible, though it did happen. Jesus would never raise money for or promote political candidates.

    1. Mark Slade says:

      The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, stupid thug.

      1. Lippyone says:

        True now, but in the beginning the Bill of Rights was not part of the Constitution. You have quite a mouth on you even for loud mouth liberal.

        1. Mark Slade says:

          The Bill of Rights are the first 10 amendments to the constitution. The Constitution was not ratified until they were included. Thus, they have been part of the Constitution ever since the Constitution has been in full force and effect, anti-American scumbag.

          1. Hope says:

            Mark, you seem to be very creative and generous with your name-calling. It seems as if you believe anyone who dares to disagree with you deserves such treatment. Unfortunately, it diminishes any points you are trying to make and it makes you a bully. Calling someone names says much more about you than it does about them. Please respect all who choose to comment and exercise more tolerance. It would be much easier to consider what you have to say if it weren’t for the intolerant name-calling.

            1. Mark Slade says:

              I merely treat conservatives the way they treat me. After all, they must believe in the golden rule and therefore want to be treated that way. Thus, I treat them with every bit of respect they deserve.

            2. Hope says:

              All people deserve basic respect. Rise above how you perceive you’re being treated. Be the bigger man.

              The golden rule doesn’t say treat others the way you are being treated. It says to treat others the way you want them to treat you. If you want respect and to have others listen and consider your point of view, you must do the same for them.

              Honestly, you sound like someone who has been very hurt and you are lashing out in all directions. I hope you find some healing, restoration, and peace.

  166. Kayt Rivermoon says:

    ……This Pagan agrees with Thee.

  167. Marcia Wilson says:

    Way to go, Pastor! Wish the one in my kids’ church had your integrity!

  168. Michael Cash says:

    Bless you.

  169. Orinzie Hooks Jr says:

    God knowing us before the womb has nothing to do with conception but speaks to God being omniscient – knowing all that was, is, will be, won’t be, all possibilities, and all impossibilities – all things. He even knows that people will misuse that scripture. Limits disqualify deity, which is precisely why we’re not who God is. I’ll trust that the unlimited God who knows our limits put the emphasis on what we should do: to love God and love each other as He has loved us.

  170. Kpyc98 says:

    “I vote for democrats….every time.” Anybody who votes fully on a party…instead of issues or people is narrow minded and part of the problem. Forming an opinion based on parties policy is not ever going to move us forward. Both parties are corrupt in their own way.

  171. Barry52 says:

    This is one of the stupidest Liberal pieces of trash I have read. Let’s go by her list, shall we?

    1. It is impossible to read the bible and still be a Liberal or democrat. God is NOT tolerant of sin and whether you like it or not, He does hate the sinner. See, unlike the pick and choose crowd I take ALL of the bible as Gods Word. Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. That means that God hates sinners. Deal with it. Unless you accept Jesus the Christ as Savior you will burn. Period.

    2. I overwhelmingly vote Republican because Liberals have no respect for the unborn child. Just recently EVERY Democrat voted to keep the vile PP funded. Abortion is mainly used as a birth control measure. Deal with it.

    3. I believe in freedom of speech unlike the Liberal trained college kids who shout down conservative views. This woman is nothing but a lying hypocrite.

    4. I believe in Christianity rather than religion. Galatins says…Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Allah is not God.

    5. Separation of Church and state is NOT mentioned in our constitution, rather the constitution states that GOVERNMENT has no business in religion and cannot hold one over another nor form and state religion. Read it. Educate yourself.

    6. If you are a Christian you are to hate the ways of the world. I hate what ISIS does and I hate the government run school systems of our country that push a lie called evolution and teach that the perversion of homosexuality is normal.

    7. If you don;t like our constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms then change it, Good luck with that. This holier than thou “professor” hates guns but would dictate that people not be able to protect themselves or their families when CRIMINALS show up with guns and start shooting. Just another whacked out Liberal that is educated beyond her intelligence.

    8. NO ONE has a constitutional right to be married. The SCOTUS pushed it’s OPINION down the American peoples throats and the two justices Ginsburg and Kagan performed at same sex marriages and the HONORABLE thing to have done was to recuse themselves from the ruling but they have no honor.

    9. Traditional marriage in the bible is ONE man and ONE woman. Get a bible and read it before you show your ignorance and stupidity.

    9. The Confederate flag is what you make it, There are too many conflicting views from blacks AND whites for this ignorant Liberal to make a call like that.

    So Mrs. Tubbs, there ya go.

    1. Mark Slade says:

      It’s going to be a much better world once all the disgusting filth like you is raptured away. Why not do something patriotic and leave for heaven now?

      1. Barry52 says:

        Well, much to your surprise there is not going to be any rapture. When the Lord comes back to this earth, ALL, including stiff kneed Liberal heathens like you, WILL bow and proclaim Him Lord. So, why don’t you bow your knee and accept Him as Savior of your soul now? He will accept you if you accept Him. He has promised to do so. So again, God is NOT tolerant of sin and that means all thieves, murderers, gays, perverts, pedophiles..all lumped together will be annihilated unless they repent.

        1. Mark Slade says:

          Actually, in the unlikely event the scenario you describe unfolds, what I’ll do is spit in the whoreson’s face and kick him in the nuts. Hope you’re blowin’ him really soon!

          1. Barry52 says:

            lol Oh, big man talking I take it. You will be too busy sniveling and begging for mercy to do anything. Too late then. I couldn’t care less if you believe or not. I’ve done told you what to do. Your blood won’t be on my hands.

            1. Mark Slade says:

              I’d much rather spend eternity in hell than five minutes around whiny christard filth like you. But please stop raping little girls the way you people always do.

            2. Barry52 says:

              Then go for it big shot. There’s nothing more hilarious than to listen to a fool talk about something he has absolutely no idea about.

            3. Mark Slade says:

              Funny, that’s exactly how I feel reading comments from disgusting christian filth. Such a shame you’re not in heaven yet.

  172. Barry52 says:

    Wow, I had a whole list of rebuttals, 10 to be exact, to the article concerning the POd Southern minister Liberal hypocrite but I see they are taken down. Liberal America is a hypocritical site that allows freedom of speech only to Liberals. Hypocrites!

  173. Barry52 says:

    This site keeps taking my comments about the Liberal ignorant professor down and that only proves my point. Liberals are cowards and cannot tolerate a differing viewpoint.

    1. J Frank Parnell says:

      Aw, I feel badly for you. It must be rough. You only have four or five comments in a row.

  174. issyk says:

    I’m with you all the way! Why on earth should we not call them out on their nonsensical propoganda?

    Your concise, cogent take on the issues will be one more logical weapon in this war on knowledge. Thank you.

  175. konnier says:

    Wish you were a pastor in every church! the world would be a better place.

  176. Sotmone says:

    Excellent piece. A Christian person.

  177. Juan Mario Agudelo says:

    Rock ON, Melanie.

  178. Sinan says:

    The Bible is nothing more than the work of religious leaders who were commanded by Emperor Constantine to determine which gospels out of hundreds if not thousands would form the canon for one church, the Catholic Church. They met, collected as many of the stories (gospels) as they could find, argued and then decided upon the ones in the Bible. All the rest of the gospels were thrown out, destroyed. The followers of the losing gospels were killed, exiled or tortured until they recanted and became Christians. None of the gospels chosen were written by anyone who had first hand knowledge of the life of Christ. The authors of the OT remain unknown to this day, no one knows if Moses ever lived. There is no proof that Jesus lived either. Constantine wanted one canon so that he could solidify his power by having this new God on his side. The rest is history.

  179. Leftcoastrocky says:

    if she were a pastor in a church near me she would see my in the front pew every Sunday, and active in church activities

  180. Scott McCollum says:

    How dare you politicize a school shooting and use it to further an agenda to take my God given right to defend myself! And Christ would not command you to honor your friends faith he would want you to try and bring them to Christ in a peaceful manor but to honor it NO! Republicans are not racist that is all made up by the liberal media! Let me remind you that it was the democrats who have a history of extreme racism! They brought you George Wallace and it was the democrats that brought us the KKK. Now we get a race divider in the white house who happens to be a Democrat and all of a sudden the Liberals past has been forgotten about and some how transferred to the Republicans like magic! The problem with the liberals is most are to damn lazy to go look this stuff up. Hell why should they? Most are getting a check for doing literally nothing! The Government has gotten so huge it is absolutely ridiculous! The government is supposed to work for the people not rule over them and more and more our rights are under attack. This is America and we have a constitution to go by and if you dont agree with it then you simply are not American. Millions of soldiers have died on battlefields fighting for it and we are sick of watching our country go down the tubes under what I now call the Liberal communism party! Dont believe it? Go learn about Manifesto of the Communist Party which was written by Karl Marx many years ago it is a playbook on how to take over the USA without firing a shot! From the inside. Go look it up and read it then just go down their list and start checking items off that’s been completed and more that are about to be completed!

  181. Luigi Stugatz says:

    Thank god I’m an atheist!

  182. Matt says:

    I think a Christian is about to get mad and throw the moneylenders out of the temple. Bravo.

  183. deliaruhe says:

    “And it is time for the Christian Left in the South to stop being afraid to speak out.”

    Interesting . . . . Just today, in response to an article about the Zionist lobby, I was thinking about the 80 percent of Jews in the US and Canada who are silent on the question of the Israeli occupation of Palestine — specifically, how the lobbies in both countries intimidate the majority of Jews not to speak out in the name of justice. I was thinking about how Likudniks in both countries have created a reign of terror in Jewish communities across North America. Just imagine, all you people who profess to know the Bible, what it must be like to be a Jew and be afraid to speak out against injustice.

    And here, it seems, we have another reign of terror — of hate-filled, heavily-armed pseudo-christians of the southern United States against their neighbours. How must it feel to be a true Christian yet be afraid to speak out against hate and violence?

    We can only imagine.

  184. […] Tubbs, a college professor and Christian pastor from rural Arkansas, wrote this piece a little more than a month ago on the progressive website Liberal America about how conservatives […]

  185. kobaltkween says:

    Thank you for your fiery words. I think the left needs more voices of faith, and that faith based communities need more voices to pull them back from darkness and hate. I keep seeing people on the left mistake religion as the reason for bigotry. Religion is just a convenient handle for bigotry to grab onto.

    Everyone who has ever authored a great wrong against people has used some ideology important to most
    people. Religion, nationalism, etc. Often even a combination of those. Humans will always have universal ideas and beliefs that hold them together. And sure, they’ll have some regional or arbitrary aspects that tyrants and hate-filled people can use to turn us against each other.

    But our pride doesn’t need to come at the cost of others, or at the cost of truth. I can’t think of a major religion that doesn’t tell us to love others and act with kindness. I can’t think of one religion that is not betrayed when its followers act out of fear and hate instead of love and kindness.

  186. Sheila Morris says:

    Thank you for this.

  187. Hope says:

    Your message is soured by referring to those with whom you disagree as “stupid”. It is also hard to consider your perspective when it is presented in a condescending tone.

    I actually agree with you on some points. But, you will catch more flies with honey. I learned that growing up in Arkansas.

    Intolerance says “If you don’t agree with me, you are wrong.” Tolerance says, “I disagree but I can learn from you. Why do you feel that way? Help me understand.” The Christian right AND the Christian left could use a heavy dose of tolerance as I defined it above.

    I hear the anger and frustration in your post and those feelings are valid. I suspect that your parishioners will have similar feelings when they find out what you really think of them.

  188. Keith Cruz says:

    Didnt realize that the south still has odd behavior left over from the civil war. The GOP and its followers are strange people

  189. Mrs. Eber says:

    I agree 100%.. Thank you well spoken and AMEN!!!

  190. splashy79 says:

    I know the feeling. Although I’m not so religious, there is still the same problem with speaking out about those things.

  191. Anthony Lawrence says:

    Silence validates ignorance and prejudice.

  192. Michael Kiralla says:

    Amen Melanie. Well said. Many of us thinking individuals totally agree with your thoughts. Stay the course. We are in this with you all the way. Michael Kiralla

  193. blazintommyd says:

    The common law of England as it existed in 1775 is the common law of the States subject to alteration by the Legislature, etc, part and parcel of that is Christian morality – the primary basis for State censorship. Now if the State, via local community standards, prohibits you from displaying the beforementioned signs in your yard you can bring a Federal suit against such municipality to strike down that policy and sue for damages too. That’s the advantage Civil Liberty has over religion; but until that’s done or until the Legislature or the People of your State abrogate parts of the State Constitution as alluded to then another part of the common law preserves “the right of having arms” as the 5th auxiliary right quoting Blackstone “when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression”. Unfortunately, Liberals today have no regard for Civil Liberty all they talk about is jobs, economic growth and world war but have no regard for the laws of the State either, consequently, it’s why a lot of people exercise their 5th auxiliary right

    1. blazintommyd says:

      PS – Ironically you can also say “piss” I think it was Brennan who pointed that out maybe in his FCC v Pacifica dissent? Something about it being in The Bible about someone pissing on a wall.